John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

I think some people are a bit naive about the reasons men want to visit women's changing rooms.

Here is an account that may be instructive. There are many of them out there.

Kim enjoys hanging out at John Lewis. Content warning.

https://www.youtube.com/@KimWestone/videos

I've yet to see any evidence of greater vulnerability to attack in the UK. Or in the EU, now I come to think of it.

Only just seen this. I think that for some transwomen this would be a good idea. But not - I agree - the sort who are there for the thrill.

Worked in “intimate apparel” for large retailer. Our bra fitter was older woman, not sweet or kind. She was a bit perfunctory and used a firm hand in her use of the tape, grabbing at cups and straps.
If someone with a cock was asked for help, she would have used her brusque manner and offered something very unsexy and not pandered to a sex pest at all. Or measured and said, that size online only.
Bra fit at your peril!

I’d say the most uncomfortable things that happened was woman returning used / threadbare nightgowns, pants … saying “didn’t wear as expected”. Of course we knew from designs most were not purchased from us, or many years prior. Manager would look in her book and say “not out stock” or, that was from 7 seasons ago, I can offer a refund by post for 99pence. That usually made them leave … not wanting to reveal name and address.

@DadJoke not sure how many TW have breasts which have been grown through hormones? As others have said if you buy your breasts they come in a set size. Whether implanted or free ranging. The biologically produced variety can be extremely variable (even within the same woman), change with things like breastfeeding etc. Many women won't need or use a bra fitter. There really is no reason why a TW should need a bra fitter in the way that women do, and for the reasons that women do, even if their breast tissue is hormonally produced. If they did need one (I imagine that male shoulders and shapes could make bras hard to fit?) then they need a fitter who can advise them. They will have special requirements. The fitter will need special training.

Its not uncommon to book bra fittings in advance (most sales staff in lingerie will not be able to do this). So perhaps someone who has specific experience can be of help here to TW customers and could be offered.

They should employ, and train up, a transwoman to do all the transwomen's bra fittings. They'll hate that.

@ReadingWorm I think that the examples that you could point out are not exact bra fitting service ones but if you wanted to could at least cause some questioning.

There was the case (Canada) where the guy wanted waxing - intimate service - and pressured worked to help serve him under threat of being sued for discrimination. (I am at work and can't recall his name but I am sure someone will).

There is also the more recent case in the UK of advice from police re trans police being able to search the opposite sex (again intimacy creates a problem) and I think Sex Matters pointed out it was abuse. Again search should find. This was the case that made me think of parallels here. There is also a question about whether women here would want to have their bra fitted by a transwoman.

Those that need bra fittings (those who are unusually shaped, particularly well endowed or have had some form of breast surgery) will know that handling breasts can occur (permission is asked but its at the least awkward). This should be a female only service.

@Soontobe60 gives a very good example of what can happen. I suspect she (and the colleague who threw the men out) would have felt even more uncertain if working in the current JL stores.

Good for you. Women need to show that we will not accept our boundaries being trampled over.

this total disregard for women and womes spaces is why I will no longer shop at John Lewis or Waitrose

It’s now been several years since I shopped in my local JL store, letters like that just reinforce my stance. Shame I used to love the store.

There is (or was at one point) a TW working in the ladies underwear section of JL in Trinity Leeds. It was during Covid and even with a mask on I knew.
DD wanted to #bekind but I said there was no way I was getting into underwear conversations about my teen daughter with a man (to DD, I wasn't rude to the JL staff member)

Are there any links to evidence of all these attacks on trans women in male changing rooms? And also toilets? TRA's always say TW (men) just want to pee/get changed, they're in enclosed spaces etc.

If that's the case then that would work just as well in the men's wouldn't it? How would a TW be at risk in an enclosed lockable changing cubicle when trying on a bra?

Have you ever been fitted for a bra in a high street retailer?

IF TW actually think like women, then they'd act how we'd act in that situation. So I think to myself, how would I act if I really wanted a bra fitting but was worried it might make others feel uncomfortable?

I'd do 1 of 2 things. (1) Just measure myself at home (2) I might email an independent store, explain the issue, that I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, ask if they would be comfortable with it, and if so whether I could come at a specific very quiet time/open 10m late for me, because I wouldn't want to make potential customers feel uncomfortable. But that I'd understand if it's a no.

I wouldn't just turn up in John Lewis. That's not how the vast majority of women act when they know they might cause offence.

If they already know the policy, then they know that it would allow such a situation to occur.

Men who claim to be women (MCW) are men. They have as much propensity for violence, are just as capable of violence as any other man. They appear (from MoJ figures about convicted sex offenders) to have a greater propensity for sexual violence than other men.

Therefore, from a safety perspective, it makes sense not to expose women to a greater risk by allowing MCW (effectively any man) into women's facilities and spaces. This also leaves men - all men - to face the same risk as they always have. MCW have not been shown to face a higher risk of violent attack than other men.

Using these instructions works very well.

https://www.booborbust.com/bra-measuring-guide/

You do it by yourself, in your own home.

I understand that may be disappointing to some men.

Shame.

I despair that anyone could read this thread, including the harrowing account of abuse above, and their first thought be 'but what about the men'???

Fucks sake I need a cup of tea and a break from the Internet.

@Soontobe60 your example made me goosebump - in a bad way. Many women will have been the subject of sexual abuse but few will know about it. Your younger self should have always been safe but especially in a women’s changing room.
Men don’t need bra fittings. I once worked with a young woman whose disabilities meant that she needed full care, including dressing. She loved shopping and choosing clothes but never used fitting rooms. Never once did she complain about anything. If she could try on things at home then trans people can do the same. I’ve only ever had one bra fitting and only because it was for a sports bra to run a marathon in.
I won’t be using JL changing rooms or their shops including online.

Men don't want a third space,it's 'outing' and doesn't validate their nonsense identities.

Why would a TW not be safe in the mens changing room? Is it because it’s full of men? Just like them?
By the way, transwomen are one of the safest demographics in the world unless they live in some South American countries and earn their living through prostitution. But then, all people who earn their living through prostitution are vulnerable.

It’s supposed to upset you. That’s how some blokes get their jollies you know.

No that’s wrong. They already know the policy. What I need is this real world example the PP spoke about. It has more of an impact if it’s true.

No one here is saying that 'TW safety isn't important'

Please don't misrepresent the discussion and derail the thread.

If you have concerns about some males using the male changing room, that's not women's problem to solve.

They're is no evidence to suggest that trans women are at risk from other males.

Transwomen are men. That's the definition of the word.

They can change with men, and have men fit them.