John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

And if they refuse to serve a transwoman who appears aroused, they are likely to lose their job.

I'm sure there will be. There was one at Marks & Spencer's at Marble Arch iirc.

It tells you everything you need to know about places like John Lewis.

Most women and girls, showing up for a bra fitting encountering a man who insists he's a woman would feel utterly violated.

John Lewis don't seem to give a fuck.

And no, of course men do not need bra fittings. Good Lord. Most women never even have one.

It's only female socialisation that says if a man is displaying an unwanted boner in your vicinity, you should ask yourself if it's rude to mention that.

Or idiots like Laurie Penny, but you don't have to pay attention to her.

Who says you can't mention it?

Thanks for posting this @ArabellaScott

There was at least one, a few years back @magicmushrooms

My concern now is are transwomen now allowed to work at John Lewis/m&s etc as bra fitters?

@ReadingWorm there was the spa in the US(?) where policies like this allowed a naked aroused men / man to join a women only naked spa session.

He's been charged now but only after the Spa tried to double down quoting their inclusive use policy and a whole load of 'confusion' over whether the penis owner was a man - Not Allowed Disgusting Pervert or a TW - Absolutely Fine Come On In.

And therein lies the rub. As without - what, a dress, makeup and some awful heels, who can tell??

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiSpaa_controversy

I worked in a well known but now defunct department store in the late 1980s and I've seen what men will do on the shop floor of the ladies underwear dept,never mind in a private fitting room.They certainly weren't worried about being seen,and it was absolutely vile and disgusting. Some of the underwear was soiled and had to be disposed of. To this day, I warn my daughters not to buy underwear that is out on hangers on the shop floor if they can possibly avoid doing so.
The message is getting out there. My elderly mum,who has had a mastectomy told me that she can't try bras on in M&S now as "they let men into the ladies fitting rooms". She refuses to shop there now,but what has it come to,that elderly ladies who have had surgery for cancer can't even try on a bra with the fear of encountering a bloke? It's shameful.

Adding John Lewis to the ever growing list of retailers that won't get my money. Shame really, I used to think that JL was an ethical brand, and bought quite a lot from them.

I doubt it. Unless it came with some very unusual Ts&Cs.

JL not concerned with safeguarding staff or female customers; just with its service to TW.

this is easy to fix. Advertise times when TW can access a bra fitting service, make it discrete and personal. And staff it with the members of the senior leadership team who are very comfortable with the policy.

Just read the resignation letter & have a query.

The former employee mentions her pension. If this is a JL one, would JL be able to take it away from her given that she has made her resignation letter public?

Transvestite men have specialist shops that cater to their cross-dressing (e.g. this) - they should be using these instead of demanding access to women's fitting rooms.

It's just yet another example of male dominance behaviour, and one that these high street retailers absolutely should not be enabling.

Thought as much.

None of the TWAW supporters ever attempt to answer this.

There is NO evidence of ANY attacks on TW in male changing rooms or toilets, none, zero, nada. Even when two prominent TW tried to stage manage one it backfired spectacularly, the men just totally ignored the TW, not so much as side eye look.

Your second paragraph - stop trying to use logic when dealing with the demands of this group, there is no logic to be found with any of the arguments put forward by this group. It is solely about this group forcing their demands and wishes, no more, no less.

Like others said, measuring for bras is not something only women can do. So train a few male people to do fittings and they can help the transwomen who need it.

As for the space, there is also no need for it to be in the womens changing rooms, just near the lingerie department. The transwomen can take the bras into the mens to try on, I am sure the lovely male bra fitter can help keep them safe and get them any other sizes to try on.

So if there is no need, there is just want.

I haven’t watched this for the good of my algorithms, but I can imagine. It is well known that many TW are (1) intact (2) sexually interested in women (3) find wearing women’s clothing arousing, I imagine lingerie even more so.

If you care about women’s safety and dignity and do not think women should be compelled to be complicit in what is effectively their own assault, you should accept that women don’t have to measure semi naked male bodied people for bras. I’m sure men can be taught how to do bra fittings for TW.

For the people saying TW need to be fitted for bras etc and use female changing rooms. What about the women who now are unable to use changing rooms (maybe for religious reasons or due to trauma or just because they don't want change with male bodied people)? They have to take all their things home to try them on

The 'breasts' that men grow when they take hormones or have implants are significantly different to actual female breasts. I think men with these lumps would benefit from a specialist service just for them. Male shoulder size is obviously also a factor, and male body hair is another consideration.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable for anyone to expect women to be involved at all with fitting clothing for this variant of male bodies. It should be men's problem to sort out.

This is like the Jonathan Yaniv case in Canada where the courts ruled that female beauticians were only experienced in waxing female bodies and therefore shouldn't have to wax male bodies.

That is rather eye opening Arabella.

I had a family member (not in the UK) who went for a bra fitting and had a male videoing in the changing rooms and corridor. She is an assault survivor and came out of the changing room to discover the male videoing her as she came out.

The store did nothing. Nothing at all.

This is not just limited to John Lewis and it is not limited to the UK.

You are absolutely right that no one person's rights trump another persons.
But lets not be so naive here with the talk of getting on with their lives in prace.
Plenty of transwomen purposefully put themselves in women's spaces either for validation or gratification, and plenty have no qualms about being litigious when their demands are catered to.

@ReadingWorm saying 'meanwhile back in the real world' means, come back to reality, this is what would happen. It doesn't mean it HAS happened, the poster wasn't referencing an example.

If I were you going into the meeting with the JL rep I would structure my questions starting with a) describe something that actually happened(easy to Google and find examples of tw in women's spaces, could talk about arousal, employee history, religion, varying degrees of female presentation ie. Would a tw with no breasts but imaginary ones or chicken fillets be indulged?)
b) ask what would jL expect an employee to do in this situation
c) ask what would they NOT want an employee to do.
I'd also state alternatives and ask about their objections to these ie. A male fitter for tw in the male changing room.

I think you are right and it will be incredibly rare. I also agree that having some special training will help. It’s so rare that I think the letter writer is using it to support her message.