Page 11 | John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

IwantToRetire · 2024-09-08T22:50:21+00:00

^High street giant John Lewis is at the centre of a furious row amid claims its controversial trans policies put the safety of female staff and customers at risk, it can be revealed.^ ^The retail group is facing claims its inclusive transgender policies – claimed to have been unilaterally imposed on staff – are "dangerous" and relegate women to "second class employees".^ ^Lesley Pickup, who quit her job as a "selling partner" in John Lewis' Cheadle branch, allowed her resignation letter to be published on TV comedy writer and women's rights campaigner Graham Linehan's Substack platform, "The Glinner Update". In her letter, she insisted "female colleagues live in fear of dismissal if they speak out".^ ^Ms Pickup said that for the past 20 years, she had been "involved with female victims from all faiths, cultures, ethnicities, and backgrounds who have been subjected to domestic and sexual violence and psychological abuse by men".^ ^For some, she said, work offered "the only time in their lives where they should have guaranteed female-only safe spaces free from the demands of men regardless of who those men claim to be".^ Full story [[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299 https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-lewis-allows-trans-men-33622299]]

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 10:31

Same with My Nigel.

sashh · 10/09/2024 10:31

ODFOx · 10/09/2024 10:23

Safety and dignity should be available to everyone. It's up to John Lewis to make sure that all their staff and customers are safe and treated appropriately. Not every trans person is an autogynaephile.

And not all teachers are paedophiles, but we treat them as though they are.

Modern schools have lots of glass in doors or windows between the classroom and corridor.

Teachers and students have separate toilets.

If a child need to use the lift because they have a disability then they get a 'lift buddy' so they are never alone with a teacher in the lift.

If a child is alone in a lift a teacher is about to get in then there needs to be another teacher or student.

Teachers have to have a DBS and other checks before they even set foot in a school.

We do all this because historically teachers have abused children so we make it as difficult as possible.

Hoppinggreen · 10/09/2024 10:31

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 10:28

Not every trans person is an autogynaephile.

No one said they were. This is about women wanting single sex spaces when they need privacy and dignity.

Dh is about as unpervy as you can get and I wouldn't want HIM in a womens only space.
Nor would he want to be

Hoppinggreen · 10/09/2024 10:29

mansplainingsincethe90s · 10/09/2024 10:26

Where else would they get their bras fitted?

Not a problem for women to solve

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 10:28

Not every trans person is an autogynaephile.

No one said they were. This is about women wanting single sex spaces when they need privacy and dignity.

mansplainingsincethe90s · 10/09/2024 10:26

Where else would they get their bras fitted?

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 10:24

ODFOx · 10/09/2024 10:23

Safety and dignity should be available to everyone. It's up to John Lewis to make sure that all their staff and customers are safe and treated appropriately. Not every trans person is an autogynaephile.

How do we know which ones are autogynephiles and which aren't?

ODFOx · 10/09/2024 10:23

Safety and dignity should be available to everyone. It's up to John Lewis to make sure that all their staff and customers are safe and treated appropriately. Not every trans person is an autogynaephile.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 08:19

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

What exactly do you mean, in practice, when you say:

" If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all?"

Especially when it comes to a man presenting as a woman. What is it you are trying to dignify?

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 08:14

DrBlackbird · 09/09/2024 22:24

That is truly disturbing.

Show quote history

Predatory. Attention seeking.

WickedSerious · 10/09/2024 08:13

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

Absolutely not.
If shops are welcoming these men they can train men to deal with them in the men's department.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 08:10

sadmillenial · 10/09/2024 03:41

I see the point you're making, but not all trans women have surgery - hormones increase breast tissue at varying rates, so it is actually reasonable that a trans woman would need a bra fitting. In my own circle of friends none of the trans women have had breast surgery.

i do agree that everyone needs to feel safe in this environment though, i know my friends would be mortified if someone felt uncomfortable fitting them. Not sure how we do this, but surely there must be a middle ground?

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" Middle ground" often scenarios stem from, and further increase, confusion and the blurring of boundaries.Clarity is what is required. Male people need to use male facilities, or else go to a 'specialist' service that indulges their particular fetish.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/09/2024 08:07

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

Men don't have breasts. If they are overweight they may have 'moobs'.

This should not be indulged. It is pure madness, and recklessness, to encourage and enable such fetishism.

Datun · 10/09/2024 08:04

And no, women do not need to be co-opted into participating in a man's sexual fantasy, ffs.

No one does.

It's quite extraordinary that we are in a place where we're not even allowed to mention it in order to object.

These men are acting out a sexual fetish, whether they have breast implants or grow bumps through hormones.

No shop assistant, male or female, should be coerced into accommodating it.

Although if they did train a man to do it, I strongly suspect the demand would diminish rapidly.

Datun · 10/09/2024 07:59

Muchtoomuchtodo · 09/09/2024 17:19

I’m so naive. Why does ‘Kim’ get from walking around JL like that? Is it just being out in public trying to look like a woman?

Yes. That's AGP for you. Hence all the surreptitious filming of himself in the mirror, using the women's toilets, and filming his own legs under the short skirt.

All fodder for his fetish.

And whilst I totally get the comfort of not knowing about any of this, in order to understand why women continue to push back, it's worth drilling down a bit.

This brilliant film is by Mumsnetter TinselAngel and tells you everything you need to know.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5151159-premiere-of-trans-widows-film-on-friday-30th-aug

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 07:37

Then again, going on past behaviour one can't be sure they wouldn't ask to interview him for their staff magazine.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 07:35

DrBlackbird · 09/09/2024 22:24

That is truly disturbing.

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Yes. The videos are quite old, otherwise I'd have sent them to the relevant John Lewis to show them what this creep is up to.

HootyMcBooby · 10/09/2024 07:21

To be honest I couldn't care less if hormones made men grow breasts as big as that Canadian "ladeeee" teacher's lovely prosthetic wonders.

They still shouldn't expect a woman to be coerced into indulging them for fear of losing their jobs or being branded a bigot.

They can train a special man to measure the special ladies breasts.

I'm sure there would be some complaints from them about that though, something about how they are actually women and are entitled to "same sex" intimate services.
You know, just like actual WOMEN have been saying.

Also, there would be no validation of their ladyness, which I am sure would be a disappointment to them.

sashh · 10/09/2024 05:14

I don't see how hormones can grow breasts? Males do have some breast tissue but they don't have the milk ducts and adipose tissue.

If you have AAA breasts you don't need a bra.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/103/2/532/4642966

The middle way is to measure at home and order online or go to a shop that is for transvestites.

sadmillenial · 10/09/2024 03:41

sashh · 10/09/2024 03:06

Trans women get their breasts through surgery.

If you undergo surgery to increase your breast size you buy a bra before going to the hospital.

And the bra you buy will not be the type JL sell.

https://andrewpieri.co.uk/blog/best-post-breast-augmentation-bra/

https://www.medasun.co.uk/product-category/bras-after-breast-surgery/

Show quote history

I see the point you're making, but not all trans women have surgery - hormones increase breast tissue at varying rates, so it is actually reasonable that a trans woman would need a bra fitting. In my own circle of friends none of the trans women have had breast surgery.

i do agree that everyone needs to feel safe in this environment though, i know my friends would be mortified if someone felt uncomfortable fitting them. Not sure how we do this, but surely there must be a middle ground?

sashh · 10/09/2024 03:06

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

Trans women get their breasts through surgery.

If you undergo surgery to increase your breast size you buy a bra before going to the hospital.

And the bra you buy will not be the type JL sell.

https://andrewpieri.co.uk/blog/best-post-breast-augmentation-bra/

https://www.medasun.co.uk/product-category/bras-after-breast-surgery/

Woman trying on post-breast augmentation surgery bra

The Best Post-Breast Surgery Bras For Recovery

To aid your recovery, you need the best post-breast augmentation bra. Leading breast surgeon Mr Pieri shares his top picks. Exclusive 10% discount code.

https://andrewpieri.co.uk/blog/best-post-breast-augmentation-bra

Teajenny7 · 09/09/2024 23:42

I hope John Lewis will not allow trans "women" to train as bra fitters.

maltravers · 09/09/2024 22:59

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

Teach a man how to do the fitting. Job done.

HootyMcBooby · 09/09/2024 22:26

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

So what about the female fitters who don't want to measure transwomen for bras?
Or the other women in the changing room who don't want a male in there while they or their daughters are trying on/being fitted for a bra?

Soontobe60 · 09/09/2024 22:25

ODFOx · 09/09/2024 22:09

I'm going to go against the grain here: female staff need to feel safe and if they don't then their employer needs to provide appropriate support for them (a second staff member on hand?) but (especially new/young) trans women may need help with bra fitting just as much as a young woman. If bra fitting is part of the shop's offering then it should be made available to all shoppers with breasts, and the shop should make sure that the staff are protected/supported.
If we are concerned with safety and dignity then it should be made available to all.

Just no. Women deserve safety, privacy and dignity from men. All men, even men who identify as women.