John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

Many people think it's completely acceptable to use women in this way. Especially shop assistants.

There was an article on MSM from a bloke who went shopping with his wife for women's clothes (for him) which he thoroughly enjoyed. And when he came to pay he made eye contact with the cashier, smirked and said something like even if she wasn't enjoying it, he was.

I've got a feeling it was even written up in the Guardian??

I know The Telegraph did a series of articles logging one man transition. I bet they haven't aged very well.

mansplainingsincethe90s
Where else would they get their bras fitted?

Not a problem for women to solve

That's my point. It's for JL to solve. Trans women may need to have a bra fitted. It's up to JL how they do that, while maintaining safety and dignity for all. ( not just the TW or the staff member or the women customers.'
And (using someone else's figures from above) just because only 0.5% of their customers are TW doesn't mean that they shouldn't be served or offered the same services as anyone else.

It's worth reading this short Guardian confessional article for some insight. My bold.

I bought my first pair of knickers in January. Within a month, I was wearing knickers and tights under my clothes almost all the time. My partner of 20 years has embraced this wholeheartedly. Sometimes we go shopping together. I let the sales ladies know I am shopping for myself. As I pay, I smile and wink, as if to say, “I am enjoying this even if you aren’t.”

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/03/my-life-in-sex

I’ve had that conversation and she says they won’t have to serve them. But the posters on here are claiming that’s not true and say they have a ‘real world’ example. Shame they can’t provide me with the evidence as I love a good gottcha for someone so entrenched in a culture war that they can’t use any critical thinking.

All part of the fun.

But, for the people who are of the opinion that there's another reason, it's still completely unacceptable.

There's no justifiable reason to use women in this way, whether he's predatory or not, whether he's getting aroused or not, whether it's for his validation or not.

You can think it's all three of those things, and I do.

But even if it isn't, it's still not acceptable to make women do this to their own detriment and discomfort.

and, of bloody course, if you make it completely legit, you're going to be inundated with creeps.

Why would John Lewis even consider it

They just want to pee...! Er. They just want to force women to handle their breasts...!

Ah but the women who object are of course bigots who need to educate themselves.

Exactly

Its very obviously going to cause discomfort and upset at best and alarm and distress at worst.

an autogynaephile

It may be instructive for John Lewis to survey their shoppers.

How many are women?
How many are men who say they are women?

What are the relative spends of each group?
What does each group think about single sex spaces?

I like John Lewis, I love the business model and the idea of it being a trustworthy, solid, dependable institution. I don't want it to fail. It's frankly weird that it's been so taken over by fetish and misogynistic policies.

Women aren't props

Quite.

What sort of man could possibly think it's acceptable to go into a female only changing room, ask a woman to fit him with a bra, talk about his 'breasts', etc.

In a specialist shop where no one minds blokes getting their chest lumps out.

If any male needs a bra fitted for whatever reason it can be done in the male changing rooms, no? Preferably by a male fitter. It's a skill they can learn. Women aren't props.

This also helps protect the teachers from false reports, fwiw. Safeguarding benefits everyone.

[edited 'protects' to 'helps protect' to be more accurate; there are no absolute protections or exemptions in any of these situations, that's the point.]

[editing again to add that perhaps it doesn't 'benefit' predators and abusers, although even that is arguable]

@ReadingWorm
The real world example is that women don't like this policy and are deserting JL in droves. As they well know.
Who on earth thought it was commercially sensible to prioritise the 0.5% of the population over the 51% ?

Here are three quotes just for starters:
"Once again: any business that doesn't know who its customers are deserves to fail."
"Well that puts me off shopping at JL again."
"I haven’t shopped at John Lewis for quite a few years."

Somehow that won't fly because it won't involve humiliating a female employee and making her pretend she's dealing with a woman in this Just Girly Thing We All Do.

Why does any man need a bra fitted??

Women go their entire lives without getting a bra fitted.

It's like they've never heard of the Internet. (And we all know that can't be true.)

It's because it's a female only service.

This is exactly what I mean.

We've come so far down this ridiculous rabbit hole, that a bloke going into the lingerie department of a department store and asking women to fit him with a bra might somehow be justified.

At a specialist shop - the sort that sells stilletos and other feminine accoutremeents - in man sizes

Whenever a man presents or 'identifies as' a woman he is objectifying what it is to be female.

How about they start their own services with a male person who understands the male body and how bras have to be adjusted to fit. Surely there is enough demand that a department store can offer a service one or two days a week. And once known those male people just book as needed.

It is not for women to solve. At all.

But every man who claims to be a woman is a man
So for that reason alone, should not be in women's single sex areas.
Why on earth can't an MCW be seen by a man in male changing rooms, or at a specialist shop for MCWs? What is wrong with that?