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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An entertaining evening

90 replies

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 07/09/2024 14:35

I went to watch a band last night at a local bar with DP.

It's always been a fairly "inclusive" place, a few pride flags, a couple of trans rights are human rights stickers around the place etc. But last night I found a new development, gender neutral toilets.

It's always been a central set of sinks, handryers etc, with mens and women's leading off. Now there's a big sign saying gender neutral and the pesky pronouns have been removed and replaced with "Cubicles and Urinals", and just "Cubicles"

I walk into the "Not the mens, honest guvnor!" , because I'm a male and a creature of habit. Annoyingly, the single cubicle is out of order, and I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

As I exit my cubicle, I give a pair of women a bit of a fright. I see them looking back at the sign doing the confused "Am I in the wrong place" thing, so I say "Sorry, it's gender neutral now", to which one of the women mutters something like "You really should use the mens". I shrug and head back downstairs.

A little later I need the loo again, I head back the working cubicles. Turns out me and the mutterer have our bladders synced as as I exit she turns up again. I get a death glare as I walk past.

Woman returns and goes to the bar, I do too shortly after, and next thing I know she's pointing at me and telling the bar man "It was this man". I give a questioning look and the barman says "Sir would you mind using the mens?"

I ask where the men's are, and he clarifies "the side with the urinals". I reply that I didn't need a urinal, I needed a cubicle and that the only ones that worked weren't near the urinals. To which he replies "That side isn't really meant for .... you"

At this point the woman realises I'm not the problem, this policy is and starts on the barman. "Would it be for him if he shaved his beard, wore a skirt? Because I wouldn't be comfortable then either!". I wander off with my beer, leaving them to it.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

OP posts:
HoppityBun · 08/09/2024 13:29

eatfigs · 08/09/2024 10:09

Next time please use the urinals rather than amusing yourself with making women feel uncomfortable.

I disagree. The OP said I'm not fan of urinals (I have the shyest bladder in the world) so I shrug, decide to take advantage to this new gender neutral world and head over to the "Not the ladies".

Men are as entitled as women to relieve themselves in privacy and comfort.

Catiette · 08/09/2024 13:24

This is an interesting one - not so much the increasingly familiar situation, but to have a male perspective on it. I agree with most of what the OP says - you seem very fair-minded and sensitive to the issues involved - but I will confess that I, too, found the tone of the title, in the context of the story, actually a bit upsetting. It’s OP’s prerogative to find it amusing, of course, and I’m grateful for the care and empathy he displays alongside this… but I can’t help but focus on the woman, wondering about her, putting myself in her position. What was a funny and thought-provoking anecdote for the OP could so easily have been, for her, the moment she began to restrict her movement in public spaces due to a realisation that she’s less safe than before, as well as something she’s still feeling angry and worrying about days later.

I had a similar experience recently, leaving a female loo in a café into a tiny, mixed space, to find a man there. It would have taken less than a second for him to push me back into the cubicle, and at the far end of a large, quiet café, behind several doors, that would have been that. I was wholly reliant on him being one of the good ones. And it’s a big ask of a woman to rely on that (see also #notallsnakes and the poisoned M&M analogy). I’m no shrinking violet, but it brought it home to me that I am slightly less safe in that café than in various others, as something to factor in as part of any future visit there. This simply isn’t fair! And it’s certainly not equality, equity or inclusion. The male/female experience of this is so diametrically opposed that even a series of largely very sympathetic (in both senses) posts from an evident “ally” (ugh, forgive me!) demonstrate this fairly starkly. It also shows why so many other men just fail to get what this means to women on any level, at all.

Namechangeforadhd · 08/09/2024 13:01

I'm not sure that chastising the OP is the right approach here either. I'm glad that he's raised it as an issue on a feminism board and is on-side. I don't think we can expect everyone to be a warrior in every aspect of this battle.

NPET · 08/09/2024 12:46

sashh · 08/09/2024 09:34

You feel sorry?

Is that it?

Obviously the policy is crap but I don't think you have any idea of the fear a male body instils in a women when she is alone with a man she doesn't know.

That is heightened by being in a place where she is vulnerable.

Why did you choose to say it was gender neutral? A sorry ladies, I need a cubicle and the one next door isn't working would be more appropriate.

While, as I've said above, I hate men intruding on "a female space", I don't believe the OP should be chastised here. It wasn't his fault the cubicle wasn't working and it wasn't his "fault" that somebody had decided the place overall was gender neutral. His only fault was in his wording. If he'd said something like "apparently I'm allowed to use these cubicles", it might have gone down better.
Having said all that, isn't THIS a female space?

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 08/09/2024 11:25

NoBinturongsHereMate · 08/09/2024 10:17

me causing trouble and getting kicked out

You could have made a complaint politely (this should be standard!). You could have made a complaint at the end of the evening. You can make a complaint now.

And as Errol says, the only detail you need to give is that you needed a cubicle - no need to say why.

Stop the cowardly excuses and do something useful.

Edited

What am I going to make a complaint about really?

This situation actually benefits me, it's now one of the pubs where I least have to worry about my psychological issue. The only thing I'd have to complain about is that according to the barman I'm the wrong kind of man to use that toilet. And I'm not going to try and get him in trouble when it's his bosses policy that's the issue, not him.

And I am sorry if I intimidated that woman. Just as I'm sorry if I intimidated someone when walking down the street, or it's just the two of us in a tube carriage at night.

In those cases, I try to minimise that if I can. I switch carriages at the next station, or take a different route home so I'm not directly following the person on the street.

I'll do the same in the pub if I can. If the cubicle next the the urinals is free, then I'll use it. I'll even wait for it. But if it's broken, then I'll use the others.

I'm not going to avoid using a mixed sex facility if it's available, just like I wouldn't stop using the tube. The problem isn't that I'm using it, the problem is that it's mixed sex in the first place.

OP posts:
SleepGoalsJumped · 08/09/2024 10:26

You're right that this was caused by the bar being idiots, not by you. You didn't do anything wrong - though neither did the woman. If the bar doesn't want people who are obviously male using the "cubiles" area their sign needs to be labelled "female people only, of any gender" and their "Urinals" area needs to be labelled "male people only, of any gender" and they need to put sufficient staffing maintenance anf resources into making sure there's always a working cubicle in the latter for those who need it. There is no objective verifiable difference between you and a transwoman so if transwomen are allowed to use the cubicles side you should be too - which is why it's a ridiculous policy.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 08/09/2024 10:17

me causing trouble and getting kicked out

You could have made a complaint politely (this should be standard!). You could have made a complaint at the end of the evening. You can make a complaint now.

And as Errol says, the only detail you need to give is that you needed a cubicle - no need to say why.

Stop the cowardly excuses and do something useful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/09/2024 10:15

Yes, what @eatfigs and others have said. You clearly don't care what the woman felt.

I don't really know the point of the thread, it just amused me and I thought it might amuse others too.

It doesn't amuse me, no.

eatfigs · 08/09/2024 10:09

Next time please use the urinals rather than amusing yourself with making women feel uncomfortable.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/09/2024 09:59

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'Stage fright' is just a common euphemism for blokes who have trouble with urinals.
But if a bloke needs to use a cubicle and it's broken, the obvious solution is for him to complain to the management without specifying why, the assumption will most likely be he needs to shit. So the embarrassment is a bit of a weak excuse for being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

sashh · 08/09/2024 09:34

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 07/09/2024 15:53

Yeah, I feel sorry for the women too. I reckon the toilet in the "mens" would likely have been fixed by the time I got there if it was still the mens, but because they know there's other options they haven't gotten round to it.

You feel sorry?

Is that it?

Obviously the policy is crap but I don't think you have any idea of the fear a male body instils in a women when she is alone with a man she doesn't know.

That is heightened by being in a place where she is vulnerable.

Why did you choose to say it was gender neutral? A sorry ladies, I need a cubicle and the one next door isn't working would be more appropriate.

ArabellaScott · 08/09/2024 08:11

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NPET · 08/09/2024 00:15

As a young woman I hate sharing what I consider should be a "female space" with men and I would have looked and commented if I'd seen you there.
HOWEVER that isn't to say that you are the problem. You're not. Places that think they're "doing the right thing" by allowing men and women to mingle ARE the problem.
When women like me stop using those places they might realise this.

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 07/09/2024 23:49

YellowAsteroid · 07/09/2024 23:37

I think @VimesandhisCardboardBoots it's a pity you didn't stand up for the woman, and actually point out that it's the bar's decision to fuck up the toilets that's the problem.

Women don't get listened to about this stuff; men do. It's very very far from ideal, but we need men to speak up about this. Every time.

Had it just been me and DP out I might have done. Of the three bands playing that night, one contained a family member and one contained a friend. Neither had played yet at that point, and me causing trouble and getting kicked out might have led them to get involved, which I didn't want.

And more selfishly, while I don't care about talking about my issues on an anonymous forum, I find it an intensely embarrassing topic to talk about with friends and family. Had one of them asked the question "Why can't you just use the bloody urinal", I'd have been most uncomfortable.

OP posts:
YellowAsteroid · 07/09/2024 23:37

I think @VimesandhisCardboardBoots it's a pity you didn't stand up for the woman, and actually point out that it's the bar's decision to fuck up the toilets that's the problem.

Women don't get listened to about this stuff; men do. It's very very far from ideal, but we need men to speak up about this. Every time.

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 07/09/2024 23:27

JanesLittleGirl · 07/09/2024 21:42

What would you have done if the loos were labelled 'Men' and 'Women' and the cubicle in the 'Men's wasn't working? Use a urinal, use the 'Women's or piss yourself?

DH tells me that the cubicle in the Men's is non-functional most of the time in our local.

I've encountered this situation a lot over the years. Generally I leave. Unfortunately that's the level of stage fright I get. It's spoiled a fair few evenings out over the years.

OP posts:
VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 07/09/2024 23:25

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 19:39

It amused you that you made a woman upset?

No, the pub's inability to think their own policy through amused me. The woman being upset was caused by the pub, not me.

All I did is use a bathroom that was signposted for my use.

OP posts:
JanesLittleGirl · 07/09/2024 21:42

What would you have done if the loos were labelled 'Men' and 'Women' and the cubicle in the 'Men's wasn't working? Use a urinal, use the 'Women's or piss yourself?

DH tells me that the cubicle in the Men's is non-functional most of the time in our local.

Manxexile · 07/09/2024 21:28

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 19:39

It amused you that you made a woman upset?

I think what amused him was the fact that the pub hadn't thought through properly where going "woke" would end up.

ie gender neutral toilets but not really gender neutral toilets

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 19:39

It amused you that you made a woman upset?

LikeWeUsedToBe · 07/09/2024 19:38

I came face to face with a man in a gender neutral toilet at soft play recently. Overwhelmingly dominated by women and he was very clearly uncomfortable.

You should give this feedback to the venue. The more people who speak up they these places may start to listen. Women alone speaking up so far has been ignored it might help if men could speak up too

Toseland · 07/09/2024 19:24

"'Cos everybody hates a tourist,
Especially one who thinks it's all such a laugh."

I think they call it sex class tourism?

NitroNine · 07/09/2024 17:49

I’m quietly appreciative of you not just deciding to use the disabled loo 🤷‍♀️

ErrolTheDragon · 07/09/2024 16:48

I reckon the toilet in the "mens" would likely have been fixed by the time I got there if it was still the mens, but because they know there's other options they haven't gotten round to it.

Seems likely.

WickedSerious · 07/09/2024 16:24

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Probably,I would have.