An entertaining evening

@YellowAsteroid and @ArabellaScott Thanks, both - I'll have a look. Could do with a boost! :)

When I was 19 and in the second day of my job I found myself alone with a man who got hold of me and forced his mouth on mine. I was shocked that there was nothing I could do and scared that the rest of the staff were upstairs and I didn't know what he might do next.
It didn't occur to me to say anything or return to that job.

A local bar recreates a very similar setup. Two rooms marked with what's in them (toilets, cubicles etc) down an isolated set of stairs where live music is on the upper floor.
They get some good events on but this setup puts me off returning.

https://x.com/MenAtWork_MC/status/1832796293581742382

Should do it!

Another day, another walk to work. 15 minutes ago. Eyes fall on the poster showing local female politician. Scrawled across the top of it - “Die, whore.” You’d think I was timing posting for effect - or maybe you wouldn’t. Anyway, I’m not (biro - not clear without a closer look; or maybe overnight?) Hopefully won’t have any more now for a while, & won’t post if I do - not my thread. But it is very demoralising.

(And it wasn’t a hate crime, at any rate. So that’s good, right? 🙄)

After all, having simply walked down the street has been provocation enough for several several male strangers this month.

@Catiette just being alive and female is where you’re going wrong. 😎

But yes, what you describe is pretty normal. A beautiful rant - rant away.

There was a great thread on Twitter by #menatwork (a really good male ally’s account) asking what men generally did when they found themselves walking behind a woman - there’s some hope that men are learning?

Sorry, on my phone so can’t link to specific tweets from the X app Apologies

Thank you so much. Feeling much better now for typing this, actually. Therapeutic posting!

I did actually yell very loudly at today's disappearing back! But then I immediately beat myself up for 1) being so rude (conditioning!) and 2) being so stupid (risky!) It was just there have been so many recently. You get used to it in a city, but, at my age, it really tends to be maybe once a month or so, not once a week! I don't know what's got into them!

So then I came here to get it off my chest, knowing that people would understand 😊 - including the OP, who I think is very open to our experiences - and thinking that maybe something good could come of sharing it, too.

It must be so hard to for men imagine, but the more who are open to trying, the better...

@Catiette I hope your post might give OP and any lurking men some food for thought.

I've just got in, and need to sound off. This thread seems as good a place to put it as anywhere, as it really does reflect why we don't want men in our spaces.

I currently live in a large city, and use public transport or walk almost everywhere.

An hour ago, a random man passing on a bike shot past me and made a noise that was clearly intended to shock me. It did make me jump. This was the fourth time a male stranger's hectored me in public in as many weeks.

There was the one who shouted, "Next time..!" What had I done to deserve that? Well, I'm ashamed to admit it, but... I'd walked down a street. (He'd charged into my path at a steep angle, clearly expecting me to jump to accommodate him, and I hadn't. He was big, and I was in danger of being knocked flying, but thankfully, we just brushed shoulders). As I walked on - eyes ahead, don't engage - he loudly indulged his righteous anger from 20 yards away.

My other sin was similarly stark. It was bad of me, I know, but I actually sat on the seat next to a man on a busy bus, expecting that he would move a few inches over so as to take up only his own seat and not a third of mine as well. That one resulted in a full 30 seconds of explosive rage, this time 5 inches from my face.

And the other? Well, I confess, I was really unreasonable this time - I was walking down the street two feet to the left. I mean, who could resist making a sudden hissing noise at an average-looking youngish woman as you pass in those circumstances.

I want to say sorry for the tone, but why should I be? This is what we live with, and I'm so, so, so SICK of it. It's exhausting and humiliating and rage-inducing.

To male readers, please just try to imagine it. And, when you do, remember that the aggressor is up to twice your size and weight, and that, that very same morning, you read in the paper about two more rapes, and one more femicide, and another abuse case.

So we keep walking, or quietly sitting, avert our eyes and try to put it out of our mind. But the next time we go to the loo and there's a man in there, we really want to cry or rage, because the sheer relief of that rare female-only space - permitted because we're so, so much more vulnerable there than in open public spaces - has been taken away.

But we hide our feelings, because we'd be a bloody fool to let anything more than mild annoyance flicker across the face for a second.

After all, having simply walked down the street has been provocation enough for several several male strangers this month.

"heads to The Ladies to get away" is a VERY good point. We've all done that (I and my galpals have anyway) and if I couldn't do that I certainly wouldn't visit that place again.

Also - distress often shows up as anger. It's less embarrassing to get angry in public than to cry in public.

The woman's distress doesn't amuse me. She didn't seem distressed, just annoyed, but previous posters have made me think about that. One poster in particular pointed out that maybe this was the moment that made the lady less likely to go out to bars in future. I'll be honest, I'd not even considered that, that this event might change a woman's life. It shows that even after a decade on Mumsnet and years on FWR, I still don't get it.

Not less likely to go in to bars, less likely to go anywhere. The stats are that 1/4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted, although I think that is on the low side, I don't know any woman who has not had something like that happen.

There were two women in the toilet so that means it is a 50% chance you retraumatised a rape victim.

You mention a daughter at school, imagine her being in the ladies that night. Would you be happy with a man using the cubicle next to her? What about in a few years when someone is pestering her in a club and she heads to the ladies to get away?

I'm glad you are trying to understand and thank you for complaining. The sad thing is that you will probably be listened to due to the Y chromosome.

I think a fairly good way to try to understand is, "Do I want this for my daughter?"

And thank you from me too. DH and I hate gender neutral toilets and we both stop going to places where they have them - and tell them why.
If everyone did this, businesses might realise what a ridiculous situation it creates.

Thank you from me, too. This is so important.

What am I going to make a complaint about really? This situation actually benefits me

<retort redacted, because of your follow up below>

I'll try and pop in when it's quiet at some point and try and have a sensible chat with him, because you're all right, it's probably the least I can do.

Thank you. Complaints should not be limited only to what inconveniences you personally, and often a comment from someone not directly affected can have more weight.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots I was pretty much with you until you asked what you could do after the event.

FWIW I have a brother who suffers from 'shy bladder' so I have an idea of how difficult and embarrassing it can be. Just as difficult and embarrassing as it is for women who don’t want to find themselves in public loos with men, after we’ve spent all our lives going to sex-separated toilets with nobody thinking twice about this being problematic in any way.

And I can sort of see where you’re coming from in describing it as you did - that the ill thought-through decision by the pub might have seemed - albeit grimly - amusing when they proved unable to explain their witless attempt to be 'inclusive'.

But….but….can't you see this IS the moment for you, as a man, to go back to them, even after the event, and complain? Because even if you don’t feel it affected you in the end, it DID affect the women. The ones you do take pains to be aware of, to think about, to try not to intimidate. Women speak up against this kind of tedious nonsense and are ignored. Yes, it shouldn’t need the men to point it out and be heard but we all know that’s where we are now. More men need to speak up and say NO, we don’t want this either. Everyone say they’ve had enough of trying to solve a ‘problem' that didn’t exist in the first place.

Edited to say - just read your update. Thank you. I’m glad you’re going to speak to the owner.

It is, OP. And you can tell him that most women will not say anything at all, they'll just never come back, and probably tell all their friends that the place doesn't have female spaces.

Any man who used either toilet was likely to intimidate any women in there, but what else could they do?

Leave. Complain.

Otherwise you are putting your comfort/entertainment/convenience over the wellbeing of a woman. It's not just or fair to suggest that women's alarm and distress is permittable, just so that men can continue to enjoy their evening entertainment.

'Intimidation' is not equivalent to 'inconvenience'.

Her distress amused you?
You are the fucking problem.

(I also have a shy bladder even in cubicles, and it can be surprisingly life-limiting, so I get that perspective, too!)

@Usernameisnotavailabletryagain, I think my post explains it pretty well (see also Arabella’s less wordy response!) I’m not a fan of outright attack on someone for putting their own interests first while demonstrating some understanding of ours… but I don’t find it easy to read, as it does inadvertently stress the Grand Canyonesque gulf between the average male versus female experience. I do wish the OP had felt able to focus on this proportionately more, and speak out on our behalf. We so desperately need this.

Bloke with a shy bladder here. I would've had to simply flee the venue; no chance I could get my plumbing to work in that situation.

Upsetting a woman is not okay. And it's sure as fuck not 'entertaining' for us.

A man who comes on a site called Mumsnet, on the Feminist board, to tell us how 'amusing' he finds a situation where he upset a woman, and we're not to chastise him?

Right.

Men need to not intimidate and upset women, it's the bare fucking minimum we can expect.

I'm not sure why people are attacking the OP. He didn't do anything wrong and demonstrated a ridiculous situation.

What am I going to make a complaint about really? This situation actually benefits me
and that is the crux of it, isnt it. This situation, all of it, from the olympics rights down to going to the pub, benefits men and disadvantages women.