Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's more important...

57 replies

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 13:22

Telling the truth, or having friends?

A while ago I would have said the truth is more important. But now that I'm losing friends - good friends who I value and care about - because of speaking the truth, I wonder if I was mistaken.

Friendship is so important. Maybe I should learn to go along with things in order to hold on to the friends I still have. Another part of me wonders if they are really such good friends if they are willing to abandon me because of my opinions and beliefs? I don't tend to bring things up in conversation unless I know the other person agrees or we have a history of being able to debate things. But now I'm losing friends because of rumours, mutual friends being offended, and I suspect because some feel it's just a bad idea to be associated with me.

It's very hurtful and I'm really sad, especially about a couple of women who have been very dear to me. I feel like I've made the wrong choice - but I'm not sure if I could have chosen silence and lies. I already feel I hide enough.

What have you chosen, and how's it working out?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
wrongthinker · 08/09/2024 14:27

CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 13:46

@wrongthinker "I'm not a racist."

Could you clarify where I called you a racist?

You called yourself a racist, I think. Said that you don't say what you think as your parents and kids would disown you for racism.

I don't know if you are trying to say that believing there are two sexes is comparable to racism, or you think I'm losing friends over racism or what. I just wanted to be clear that I'm not a racist.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 13:46

@wrongthinker "I'm not a racist."

Could you clarify where I called you a racist?

wrongthinker · 08/09/2024 08:41

GoldenLyonel · 08/09/2024 08:38

They sew seeds of doubt about you with others and they also make it clear that they will consider any continued association with you as a problem for them.

Divide & Conquer tactic. They’re trying to isolate you as you are ‘the enemy’, and leave you without a support system, which in turn makes it harder for you to defend yourself against what is being spread about you. They know what they are doing. It’s toxic and manipulative.

Yes. But they present themselves as so kind and caring, they are so upset about having to say anything bad about you, etc. They are crybullies.

OP posts:
GoldenLyonel · 08/09/2024 08:38

wrongthinker · 08/09/2024 08:31

But it would be a way of trying to truly understand where they are, where a lot of people are. Value yourself enough to think that it has also been painful for them to distance themselves.

Thank you. I think I have a lot of incomprehension towards the "other side" because for me it's clear that men can't be women and pretending they can be is a disaster for women and children. I wouldn't even call myself a terf because I don't even consider myself a feminist except in the most basic "women should have equal rights" kind of way. And I also don't write a lot about the ins and outs of the issues - the latest round of cancellations and unfriendings for me was when I said I didn't think men should be allowed to beat up women for sport. Nothing to do with trans.

I don't know where to begin to try to understand my friends' views on this, because I don't think it's about differing views. I think it's more about tribes. Me being accused of being a terf is enough to put me in the tribe of the unspeakables.

Also there are people who put the pressure on others. Who make up lies. They'll say, she said this or that, she hurt me in this or that way. I know she seems nice but this is what she's really like. You can't be friends with someone like that. They sew seeds of doubt about you with others and they also make it clear that they will consider any continued association with you as a problem for them.

They sew seeds of doubt about you with others and they also make it clear that they will consider any continued association with you as a problem for them.

Divide & Conquer tactic. They’re trying to isolate you as you are ‘the enemy’, and leave you without a support system, which in turn makes it harder for you to defend yourself against what is being spread about you. They know what they are doing. It’s toxic and manipulative.

wrongthinker · 08/09/2024 08:35

I’m sure they’re not ‘bad people’, but the current climate is such that trans people are seen as the most downtrodden, most marginalised group, and going against that is social suicide in the majority of situations. And not just social, economic as well.

I think this is probably the heart of it. And I also think going against the prevailing views is tolerated as long as you don't make it obvious that you do. Or if you're a man. Men are allowed to dissent.

OP posts:
Igmum · 08/09/2024 08:32

So sorry you're going through this @wrongthinker. I tend to be cautious in conversations, outright terfy with others who are sane or getting there, with TRA adjacent and TRAs I just try to say a little thing that might plant a small seed of doubt. Water on a stone. I hope one day we will all be full on terfs (ok being naive but I can dream).

wrongthinker · 08/09/2024 08:31

But it would be a way of trying to truly understand where they are, where a lot of people are. Value yourself enough to think that it has also been painful for them to distance themselves.

Thank you. I think I have a lot of incomprehension towards the "other side" because for me it's clear that men can't be women and pretending they can be is a disaster for women and children. I wouldn't even call myself a terf because I don't even consider myself a feminist except in the most basic "women should have equal rights" kind of way. And I also don't write a lot about the ins and outs of the issues - the latest round of cancellations and unfriendings for me was when I said I didn't think men should be allowed to beat up women for sport. Nothing to do with trans.

I don't know where to begin to try to understand my friends' views on this, because I don't think it's about differing views. I think it's more about tribes. Me being accused of being a terf is enough to put me in the tribe of the unspeakables.

Also there are people who put the pressure on others. Who make up lies. They'll say, she said this or that, she hurt me in this or that way. I know she seems nice but this is what she's really like. You can't be friends with someone like that. They sew seeds of doubt about you with others and they also make it clear that they will consider any continued association with you as a problem for them.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 08/09/2024 08:28

@wrongthinker " not a racist."

I didn't say you were, did I?

GoldenLyonel · 08/09/2024 06:51

They have chosen ‘looking good to others’ over your friendship. They are either weak to peer pressure, selfish, or both. I understand you must feel incredibly rejected, especially by people who do know you better but have chosen to shun you anyways, because it benefits them to do so. I’m sure they’re not ‘bad people’, but the current climate is such that trans people are seen as the most downtrodden, most marginalised group, and going against that is social suicide in the majority of situations. And not just social, economic as well. This idea is being taught in inclusiveness trainings at work places across the UK. I’ve seen this firsthand from a major company, they won’t be the only ones doing this.

PermanentTemporary · 08/09/2024 06:23

I'm imagining what it would have been like if my sister had gone the opposite way on this to me - and the answer is, I would have done almost anything to retain a relationship with her, she's vital to me.

However, I don't write for a living. And I know that if I had had a gender-questioning child, she would have wanted to support us both.

As an exercise, could you write something about a fictional character who is converted - who is a terf (I have started labelling myself as a terf rather than GC these days) and who comes round to a different view? Or a dialogue between a fictional version of you and a fictional version of your friends? I don't know what that would look like, though I can see some of the starting points? I think for me that would be a painful exercise in itself - just last week I came across the mind map I made when I first encountered this issue at work about a decade ago, and it is full of so much pain. But it would be a way of trying to truly understand where they are, where a lot of people are. Value yourself enough to think that it has also been painful for them to distance themselves.

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 23:36

Forester1 · 07/09/2024 23:03

That’s tough. Don’t have any suggestions as I can’t imagine doing what they are doing to a long standing friend.

I think in both cases they have a lot to lose and I guess they both decided they would rather lose me than the other things at stake. For one friend, I think it's a whole new circle of "queer" friends, and for the other, it's her reputation and status.

A part of me completely gets it, but it doesn't stop it from being hurtful. I don't think any less of them for their choices, even though I would and have made different ones. The fear of losing friends and social standing is really powerful.

Or maybe it's a genuine disagreement or dislike of my views, and they just think I'm a bigot. But it's hard for me to understand how anyone who knows me at all could believe that.

OP posts:
GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 07/09/2024 23:21

heldinadream · 07/09/2024 13:30

So difficult. Friends - and family in my case too - are obviously important. But so is personal integrity and not colluding. And not giving in to what feels like mass gaslighting.
I've taken both stances, arguing and shutting up. There's no comfortable place, it's an ongoing dynamic. I try to take a long view - I'll avoid the subject but hope that as opinions shift we can again open up about it.
Meanwhile there's a certain emotional distance but not total estrangement.
Sorry @wrongthinker don't know if that's any help.

I could've written this. This is my experience also

Forester1 · 07/09/2024 23:03

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 21:25

No. That's part of what's hard. I've tried to open a conversation with both of them but in both cases they just kind of evaded it. I'm not going to push it - it's their choice and obviously they don't want to discuss it. It makes me sad though because I feel like if it was the other way round I would be open to talking about it, at least hearing their side. But then as a pp said, maybe I valued these friends more than they valued me.

That’s tough. Don’t have any suggestions as I can’t imagine doing what they are doing to a long standing friend.

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 21:26

CurlewKate · 07/09/2024 21:19

Frankly-I keep my mouth shut because otherwise I would lose my children. I would have cut off my parents if they had been racist-and my children feel the same. So I shut up.

I'm not a racist.

OP posts:
wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 21:25

Forester1 · 07/09/2024 20:47

Have you been able to have a proper conversation with the two individuals you were closest two? It sounds like it’s worth trying to repair these relationships - but agree with others that if they are expecting you to change who you are then they are probably no longer real friends.

No. That's part of what's hard. I've tried to open a conversation with both of them but in both cases they just kind of evaded it. I'm not going to push it - it's their choice and obviously they don't want to discuss it. It makes me sad though because I feel like if it was the other way round I would be open to talking about it, at least hearing their side. But then as a pp said, maybe I valued these friends more than they valued me.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 07/09/2024 21:19

Frankly-I keep my mouth shut because otherwise I would lose my children. I would have cut off my parents if they had been racist-and my children feel the same. So I shut up.

Forester1 · 07/09/2024 20:47

Have you been able to have a proper conversation with the two individuals you were closest two? It sounds like it’s worth trying to repair these relationships - but agree with others that if they are expecting you to change who you are then they are probably no longer real friends.

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 20:03

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 19:26

there are writers who will go through your follows and fb friends and call you out if you're friends with the wrong people.

These people are fuckwits, the absolute pits.

Ditch shit people. Better to be alone for a bit than have shit friends. It's pretty likely you will meet other people who are brave, honest, sensible, thoughtful, kind and interesting.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying my friends have or would do this. But I think (know) those people put pressure on my friends and everyone else.

OP posts:
PriOn1 · 07/09/2024 19:40

My answer, OP, is that I am continuing to tell my truth, because that matters to me. My situation is a little different. I had gone many years being open with family and on the internet, but without it ever impinging on my work colleagues or friends.

Then something changed in a close family member’s life. Initially she banned me from speaking on the topic and now she has told me I’m hateful and has shut me out of her life.

But I have been speaking out for years and being able to do so is incredibly important to me. There have been many attempts to silence me over thee years, including at least one threat to attempt to ruin my career. So painful though it is, I am not going to stop.

I am honestly bewildered that my relative can believe me to be hateful. I have shown nothing but love to her over the years and never once did anything to hurt anyone she loves, but she has convinced herself that I am untrustworthy and cruel.

There is no evidence and I can only think the cognitive dissonance is the real source of her anger, but it’s incredibly sad. The one thing that’s keeping me going is my clear conscience and I have concluded that matters more to me, even than family. I can’t lie for her or to her and she has to take her own pathway.

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 19:26

there are writers who will go through your follows and fb friends and call you out if you're friends with the wrong people.

These people are fuckwits, the absolute pits.

Ditch shit people. Better to be alone for a bit than have shit friends. It's pretty likely you will meet other people who are brave, honest, sensible, thoughtful, kind and interesting.

Ingenieur · 07/09/2024 19:24

HPFA · 07/09/2024 19:10

I'm not sure what it is about #the issue# that means people will blow up their friendships, it's baffling.

It makes some sense when you realise that no-one actually believes what they're told to believe. But they're told they're an awful person if they don't believe it.

So it's hard for them to listen to people who say openly they don't believe because it makes them face up to the fact that they don't either.

That's a good point, thank you

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 19:19

Thanks for the support, everyone. It does help. I feel I can't really talk to anyone in real life about this because I don't want to draw others into my "drama".

I do think fear plays a huge part, and I have a lot of sympathy for that. I also think there's pressure on people to choose - there are writers who will go through your follows and fb friends and call you out if you're friends with the wrong people.

OP posts:
HPFA · 07/09/2024 19:10

I'm not sure what it is about #the issue# that means people will blow up their friendships, it's baffling.

It makes some sense when you realise that no-one actually believes what they're told to believe. But they're told they're an awful person if they don't believe it.

So it's hard for them to listen to people who say openly they don't believe because it makes them face up to the fact that they don't either.

TheMamaBear · 07/09/2024 18:27

wrongthinker · 07/09/2024 15:14

But then I think that Freedomdogs might be right, in that my friends are being told I'm a bigot. The truth that there are two sexes is presented as a reasonable cover for evil thoughts.

It makes me really sad to think that my friends think that of me, if they do.

If that's what they think then you're best off without them, they sound like they're severely limited in their critical thinking skills and appear very childish to me.

OttersAreMySpiritAnimal · 07/09/2024 17:39

It's fear, fear of standing out, fear of being different, fear of being seen as other.
It's the reason I stay mostly quiet at work. I know, have known for many years, that I have a work personsa, and then the real me. When my workplace say it's ok to be yourself at work, that this makes for happy and productive employees, I'm laughing at them inside. What they mean is, be yourself as long as that's something they think it's acceptable. The real me is very much NSFW.
I'm careful with friends, I have a very small circle, and it's taken me quite some time to gently broach the subject with some of them. No rejections so far, but I'm braced for it at some point.
I've long recognised that sometimes you have to let people do them. Maybe they will find their way back to you, sometimes people need to do a little thinking and reflection before they figure out how they feel isn't what they are being told they should think and feel and it takes time to get past the fear. Old friends may not last the course and I grieve each time, but I accept that it's going to happen.
I think you have it harder as a writer as your job means you are putting yourself out there and your persona of far less private than mine. It's going to bring you into conflict and you're not going to be able to choose the time and place.
Ultimately, I like me, I like how I think. If you like you, if you are proud of you, then that would be damaged if you compromise. You do you. I wouldn't want friends who weren't proud of me and who didn't support me, and who can't cope with a difference of opinion or belief and still be a good friend.