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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

VAWG - how does the cognitive dissonance not smack them in the face?

38 replies

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/08/2024 07:00

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/29/men-killing-women-girls-deaths

I thought this was an excellent piece - full of cold controlled fury about the dreadful and ongoing VAWG

“Male violence – whether domestic abuse, a stranger attack, or terrorism – is not a case of a few bad apples or a rare lone event. It is systemic, a result of a thousand moments, big and small, that teach men to hate and women to be afraid.
The reason that the spate of killings this summer has resonated with many of us is that it feels at once shocking and deeply familiar. Women can join the dots between the day-to-day indignities and stresses we face – the wolf whistles, the park flashers, the public transport gropes – and the stuff of nightmares. This is not hysterical or an overreaction. Evidence shows that men who commit murder, including as an act of terrorism, often have a history of “lesser” offences, such as stalking or domestic abuse”

Yes yes to all of the above and yet FR is a committed TWAW how does she not see? Every piece of safeguarding removed to appease men’s insistence that they are in fact women is giving any and all men access to the few safe spaces women have

How does she not understand this?

A summer defined by men killing women and girls. This can’t go on | Frances Ryan

The recent spate of deaths has resonated with so many people because it feels at once shocking and deeply familiar, says Guardian columnist Frances Ryan

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/29/men-killing-women-girls-deaths

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/08/2024 08:51

I found it was possible to hold those two ideas in my head until I started to think about how to make them work in practice. There wasn't a way to make them both work.

As in so many logical contradictions that look consistent on the surface, it is the misuse or loss of quantifiers (all, some, sometimes, always, may, does) and comparators (equally, similarly, the same) that does it. All you have to do is leave a few of these words out or smear them together.

when a man identifies as a woman that means they are taking on women's oppression so are equally oppressed

When "a man identifies as a woman" that may mean he is sometimes "taking on women's oppression". But not all of it, and not all the time. If he is oppressed himself he's not "equally oppressed" because he is also still capable of continuing to oppress women through the masculine qualities (such as physical size and strength and psychological habits and tendencies) that he retains.

(if not more so because of nasty women not accepting them)

He may also be oppressed in ways that women aren't due his to being gender non-conforming.Much of that oppression will come from men, and it's mostly not the same oppression that women get. That doesn't mean he is being more oppressed than women. Just differently.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 08:47

lcakethereforeIam · 30/08/2024 08:46

I'd add to point 2. that tw who hurt women aren't really trans, they're 'at it'.

Yes, not 'tru trans'.

But whenever we ask how we're supposed to tell the difference ... crickets.

Trans identifying men have to be the victims. Even when they manifestly aren't. Their position totally depends on this.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 08:46

Manipulation of language is very important to maintaining this double think. I try to call out that 'transwomen are men' every single time it comes up. It's much harder to gloss over the danger they pose when we unambiguously say who they are.

lcakethereforeIam · 30/08/2024 08:46

I'd add to point 2. that tw who hurt women aren't really trans, they're 'at it'.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 08:43

The Ketman point is a good one. I think the thought process goes like this ...

1.Men do terrible things to women.

2.But men who identify as trans aren't actually men so don't count (despite all evidence to the contrary). Also they are 'mostest oppressed' compared to women, therefore are top trumps. Incidents where TIM hurt women are really rare and should therefore be ignored and not talked about.

3.The fact that self id allows ALL men into women's spaces is mostly glossed over as something that wouldn't happen, despite point 1 above. When the evidence is in their face, then they justify putting in women in danger because it wouldn't be fair to TIM, and as they are the most oppressed, they take priority.

The conclusion here is that these people don't care about women nearly as much as they care about presenting the 'right' opinions to their peers.

But I agree, the cognitive dissonance must be tough to deal with. Which is why increasingly they just want to silence/suppress the bits of the conversation that show their hypocrisy for what it is.

Zita60 · 30/08/2024 08:41

I suspect she genuinely thinks that transwomen are women and that includes taking on the behavioural aspects of women, i.e. that we commit less violent crime than men.

So she thinks transwomen aren't a danger to women. Or rather, they pose the same threat to women as "other" women do, rather than posing the same threat to women as men do.

Lovelyview · 30/08/2024 08:31

If you don't think too hard about it you can hold in your head the two ideas that male violence is a problem but that when a man identifies as a woman that means they are taking on women's oppression so are equally oppressed (if not more so because of nasty women not accepting them) It's a really odd mental state to be in but as others have said, humans are very good at explaining away anything that doesn't fit our current world view.

RainWithSunnySpells · 30/08/2024 08:02

The answer is a concept called 'ketman'.

'The subjects produced by totalitarianism were not mindless drones, but skillful dissemblers, as capable of self-justification and moral hair-splitting as the best-trained Jesuit. The name Miłosz gave to this new talent was ‘Ketman’.'

https://aeon.co/ideas/ketman-and-doublethink-what-it-costs-to-comply-with-tyranny

<p>Poet and Nobel Prize winner Czesław Miłosz speaking onstage to a crowd of students at Warsaw University, Poland, 1981. <em>Photo by Keystone/Getty</em></p>

‘Ketman’ and doublethink: what it costs to comply with tyranny | Aeon Ideas

What does compliance with political tyranny do to us? On the concept of ‘ketman’ and the lessons of Cold War Poland

https://aeon.co/ideas/ketman-and-doublethink-what-it-costs-to-comply-with-tyranny

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/08/2024 07:49

It’s about TW being men and men being the perpetrators of everything she talks about. Women trying to keep men (however they present) out of women’s spaces are doing it to protect our safety (as well as privacy & dignity & the right to have our own fucking spaces!). There is zero evidence that TW stop displaying the same traits as other men that’s why women need single sex spaces

how does she not see that?

OP posts:
MagpiePi · 30/08/2024 07:35

Because it’s not real transwomen who commit violence against women and girls, it’s men who pretend to be women who do the bad stuff. Real transwomen ‘just want to pee.’
Not sure how they get round the fact that you can’t tell which is which until a woman or girl is hurt but they’re just collateral damage when ‘being kind’ is the most important thing.

VoodooQualities · 30/08/2024 07:26

She probably doesn't connect the two things. After all, none of the recent murders were committed by transwomen, nor did they happen in women's spaces, and they'd have happened regardless of the way our society regards transwomen. Just good old fashioned VAWG, and it was ever thus.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 30/08/2024 07:24

Given the offences are sub judice, I'm curious as to her confidence in linking the listed cases with wolf whistling. We don't know what the motivations were. All the cases could be quite different.

Useruser1 · 30/08/2024 07:19

It's because they don't really care about women. They're lying.

It all makes sense then