BBC on gender stereotypes through toys and clothing 😲

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889157522005075

www.theguardian.com/science/2014/feb/14/baby-boys-girls-sex-formula-milk

But when mothers fed female babies, their milk was less fatty and had more calcium, probably to support the faster growth of their skeletons. Mothers produced more milk overall for females, and over the course of their breast feeding, they received the same amount of fat as the males.
"The recipes for milk for sons and daughters may be different, and the difference may be greater depending on where the mother is at in her reproductive career," said Hinde.
"Boys and girls have different developmental trajectories, so if they are not getting what they need, their development will not be optimal."

There's lots of research on it. You can Google it.

There's lots of interest aspect of breast milk relating to epigenetics and how this is different in males and females. That's for another day though.

Boys take more from their mothers right from the start: larger placenta, larger average tongue size. The latter will affect suction, and may therefore affect milk production.

That's interesting. How does breast milk differ?

By 3 months of age boys and girls brains respond differently to just speech.

By which time they have had at least 3 months of being treated as a boy/girl.

Yes there are differences in physiology - if there weren't there would be no issue with mixed-sex sport. But in neurodevelopment and behaviour it is virtually impossible to separate out anything and say 'this is innate'. You'd need to find a difference within hours, or at most days, of birth - not 3 months later. The only one I know of with evidence that early is a very slight difference in amount of time looking at faces at a few days old. And from memory I don't think that was checked with adults blinded to the baby's sex, so the cause may have been differences in adult behaviour.

By 3 months of age boys and girls brains respond differently to just speech. Breast milk is very different for boys and girls because they both have different needs. There are differences in development in utero too. It's not nature vs nurture, it's nature and nurture.

We don't have different genes to code our brains in different ways for fun.

That seems a not just a shame, but also very short-sighted. Especially at a time when women's sports are receiveing more coverage than ever

There are still quite a number of state single sex schools where I live; all of them church schools, though. Olympic Heptathlon medallist Katarina Johnson Thompson went to one of them, as did Tae Kwondo medallist Bianca Walkden.
Mind you, both of these women trained outside of school in 'non school' sports, and the ability to do that will depend on the availability of facilities in your local area.

Having said that, years ago in the 1970s my junior school had a playing field and we all did hurdles, long jump and high jump, and my secondary school did javelin too.

Yes this here too! I have an older son, younger daughter. We've had a dollshouse, pram, play kitchen etc as well as cars, balls, ride ons since before my daughter was born. The dolls house and kitchen basically sat gathering dust, as did most of the dressing up. The pram was used occasionally as a walker, but if left to his own devices DS didn't go for stuffed toys, dolls, arty things or role play. He was all about building, destroying, cars, balls, things which moved.

DD however the first time she propelled herself across the floor it was to get to the dollshouse. She enjoys playing with balls, ride ons etc but seems to gravitate more naturally towards stickers, art stuff and role play with her doll or other toys.

I can't say I haven't subconsciously added to the bias in anyway, but they both have access to all the toys and seem to have natural affinities to particular ones.

Did once did a competition at a local private school.

we were looking at secondaries at the time and she said how much she’d like to go there- massive sports facilities, pool, extracurricular clubs, posters of those achieving county and international levels on the walls.

looked into it- boys school. Amazing sports scholarships that would have paid all the fees, and that dd would have qualified for as a nationally ranked junior.

bit more checking, they also have a partner girls school. Fab I thought.

the girls school was building only. No sports facilities. Part bursaries for arts and drama only. Nothing for sports.

i was shocked- as you say most girls schools I’d come across before do have very active sports teams. Although thinking about it the last few years many are reducing girls sports as they sell off the sports fields and facilities- girls are the first to go as they keep the boys.

It didn't occur to the dinosaur dad that maybe the boy might want some day to be a father, of course.
I see plenty of dads out on pushchair duty nowadays, and the style of many buggies is a bit more technical and robust looking nowadays...maybe this is/will be reflected in toys and erode that particular stereotype a bit?

It is really difficult the whole nature nuture thing but as a community and culture we definitely reinforce stereotypes. As a child, I was the eldest of 6, my Dad taught me how to change oil on a car (aged 3 sat on side of car watching) use hammer and nails, Lego was our thing and I loved it it was my before 7am toy that I was allowed. Loved sandpits and diggers and anything that was mechanical. But I also loved dancing, painting, drawing, colour arty things, baking and so on...but so did the whole 6 kids we were three of each. THe main difference at the time was the boys did rugby. My youngest sister tried it but in those days it wasn't very inclusive. I was quite sporty but not in team type things for the most part - I loved Cricket though but we weren't allowed to play it at school, so we challenged the male teachers to a game and if we won we could have a cricket season. We did win which was quite funny but it was a catholic school and many of us had a handful of brothers and played in the garden at home so we weren't bad!!

I do recall once at a car boot a little boy desperate for a push chair and baby and the Dad literally grabbing him up snatching it off him and saying you are not having that its for girls "you don't want to be a puff" was so shocked even 15 yrs ago

I can see how that might happen, though I was always sporty and athletic as a child and I was the oldest child...with a much younger brother. My mother was a competitive runner in her youth, and both my daughter and granddaughter have been/are sporty too......Encouraging a wide range of sporting activities at primary school is important.....and some schools are far better at this than others. Also, of course, encouraging and practising things such as ball skills ( throwing/catching) from a very early age encourages good hand eye co-ordination and physical confidence. Bike riding. Swimming.

I went to an all girl secondary school, and found that sport was really strong in all girls's schools; although not all girls are necessarily sporty, of course.

Fathers often engage in a very physical way with children....throwing them, swinging them........and this can also encourage physical confidence and ability.

I agree completely with the last few posts

Additionally, most people re-use clothes and toys, there would be less pushback about re-using young boys clothes for a girl than vice versa.

my dd is the eldest girl. And is an elite level athlete.

i am also a coach and while I agree with you, I do think stereotypes still contribute. Boys are encouraged to be active and daring due to adults attitudes.- as we see on the bbc o/p people don’t even realise they’re redirecting boys to active toys and physical play, and girls to caring roll play, dolls etc.

having older brothers negates the stereotyping influence as girls copy their brothers, and are more influenced by them than adults encouraging them to play nicely.

in my own family this would follow- my dad wanted boys but as the eldest girl I was the one taken to sports classes, encouraged to go against the girl stereotypes and allowed to climb trees and test my physical limits. In turn I encouraged my dd’s to climb and explore, I would rather go to the park or a climbing wall than sit and draw. I took her to football, to gymnastics, swimming, she tried everything. Funnily enough it’s dh that is the artist and hates heights 😂

one massive influence with sport I did see with girls with elder brothers- I coached in a sports centre. Nearly every girl I had was there because her older brother was in football and my class was basically a sibling babysitter 😂. While the parents went to watch the future premier leaguer. Whatever the reason though, girls with older brothers had more opportunity because they were already in that sport environment.

My 'anecdata' would support your observation of the role of elder brothers, which also supports my thoughts on learning through modelling examples I think.
I was very aware of the need for good role models and male support for my boys, particularly as their journey through puberty into adulthood would be so different to mine.

Amazing to read this - close match to my experience with my dd.
However, I am not convinced that energetic climbing and interest in "boys" toys is entirely due to stereotyped expectations. It might be amplified by them, though.
I've coached enough 3year olds to see a pattern where girls with older brothers are bolder and fitter than girls with older sisters. I've observed that older brothers will encourage younger siblings to jump from heights, challenge them to go faster, throw a ball further. They will call a sibling a "scaredy-cat". So the best girl athletes i have seen frequently seem to be younger sisters of brothers.

One thing the rise of gender ideology has forced me to acknowledge is the role that gendering children in traditional societies plays in preparing boys for the huge changes that will come with puberty - they'll become adult males with all that agression and sexual drive. Traditional mores and child-rearing methods attempt to channel that, to form boys into men in a way that doesn't lead to sexual agression and menacing behaviour.
I don't know if I think it's the best way to parent / prepare kids for adulthood. But I can at least see the different perspective now, whereas I think thirty years ago I'd have basically had a radical feminist attitude to traditional cultures.

I don't think that was sarcasm.
If there are observed differences, how do we know if they are truly innate or if they acquired? We know that brains are 'plastic'.

There may be some genuine innate sexed differences, but do we know what, if any, 'gendered' behaviours they create?

Are you being sarcastic?

We all bring a little bias to our lives. I still cannot comprehend the mentality that sees a child's clothing and toy preferences as a sign they were born in the wrong body.
We discovered a few years ago that our son has a disability that will require lifelong medical attention. I would take that away from him in a heartbeat if I could and am so angry at what is being done to physically healthy children and teenagers in the name of trans ideology.

My toddler had a pixie hair cut- it was very fine and delicate and I’d learned from her sister short was better as tying it up damaged it. It was absolutely gorgeous, in fact she got scouted for a major London model agency as they loved her “look”, and she stood out from the blond long hair norm.

but the shit we got. People would stop me in the street and ask me why I’d allowed my little boy to go out dressed in his sisters clothes. A bunch of kids started on her, a 3 year old, in a swimming pool because she was wearing a girls swimming costume.

when she started school kids would lecture her on how she was a boy, and try and exclude her from girls activities. Fortunately the teachers- both women with short hair, had that sorted very quickly. Plus it quickly showed her who were her friends and who not.

in the playground if she wore a dress it was mind the little girl, ask her to move, be careful, does your mum know you’re going that high?. If I put her in trousers it was wow look at the little boy climb, isn’t he amazing, move out of his way.

people would actually correct me when I said she. Even dressed in a pink dress it would be “you mean he”.

i’d get lectures on how hard little boys are as toddlers, and I must be exhausted chasing him around, he was so active!. I’d be grateful in the teenage years though as girls were awful.

gender bias is so common- and most people don’t even realise they’re doing it.

True. I would not put my boys in a dress but I would put a girl in trousers.
Although saying that, I never stopped my younger son from wearing the pretty dresses in the dressing up box at toddler groups if he wanted to.

The dressing up box at home was a mix of things people gave us and book day / hallowe'en costumes. We had the obligatory spiderman suit (with padded pecs 😁) The morph suits and star wars robes were often used. The lab coats not so much. Peer pressure was notable from reception, also among the parents.

There are all sorts of subtleties. Although some of us ignore which aisle we buy small children's clothes on to a greater of lesser extent, it's indisputably true that clothes inc footwear are heavily gendered. 'Girls clothes' are, on average, that bit less practical and robust than 'boys clothes'. Fabric, fit and even colours - when she was about 5 I got dd a twin pack of cotton jersey dresses, one pale pink, the other sludge green. She chose to wear the latter far more because it didn't show grass and mud stains.

The nature/nurture debate is an old one.
Were my ancestors artisans because they had innate ability or was it because they were given the opportunity?

One thing I will observe, I briefly helped in an elementary school, most children didn't know how to use a knife and fork and the basics of table etiquette. None of them knew how to use a skipping rope or to play 'outside' games. They struggled to tie laces and use zips and buttons. These skills are either modelled or taught through play, so I think the adults in our lives determine what we learn, our personalities and abilities determine how we learn.

And dogs.

i had a boy dog which would carry a stick around at all times

i do not extrapolate that this means his joy in stick collecting is related to his sex.

interesting that pp puts her child’s love of sticks down to his sex- and not perhaps the unique nature of lockdown where the child might be more physically frustrated, have less access to enrichment so is finding it in his environment- where sticks are easily accessible. Possibly spending more time in the garden where he can be louder without being asked to stop- boys need to burn off that energy, right? Or one of the million other reasons why this child might like sticks.

plus going back to the video- parents often don’t realise they will ask girls to stop with rough play, to quiet down, to be redirected to a more sedate activity. Boys, meanwhile, will be boys and that behaviour less controlled.

Playing with sticks is indeed innate - to children of both sexes in all species of great ape.