‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

Could you please explain how it is not incredibly offensive to say people can be whatever sex they choose, when there are millions of women suffering, right now, because of their sex. Would you say these things to them? Do they even exist to you?

yes

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon that occurs when a person holds two contradictory beliefs at the same time

for example, you know full well that a woman is adult human female, but for some reason you also want to believe that some men are women

it seems to be making you unbelievably tetchy

No.

@ElleWoods15 if these males are identifying as women, then what exactly are they identifying with? Please explain.

I'd love to engage with you but you seem unable to

can you give some of the characteristics that make you sure Jools from the article is a woman? you are being quite rude to me and have used insulting names about others because we don't share your beliefs, so you must have really thought this through. this should be easy

Do any of you actually know what cognitive dissonance actually is?!

I do appreciate that the pain of the cognitive dissonance you'll be experiencing due to being asked to explain your poorly reasoned beliefs probably feels like bullying.

Cognitive dissonance is never comfortable. Personally I think the bullying is when people try to force their poorly reasoned beliefs on other people, to their detriment. And throw around abuse, slurs and sneering comments.

Oh my goodness I recognise you from a previous thread (‘pain of cognitive dissonance’ is the giveaway- is it a phrase you read in a self help book?!). Again, the way you just poo poo others opinions by attempting to belittle is no invitation to sensible engagement.

The identity of the person who started this trend is not so relevant. The original TikTok trend was a series of videos each one contradicting the one before, with the catchy funny catchphrase very demure, very mindful. It was playful and if anything played on the impossibility of societal expectations for women and the fact we are often not very demure or mindful. I found it pretty funny but throwaway.

Calling someone else’s views nonsense @GailBlancheViola is exactly what I mean when I say there is anti trans bullying on here. Saying someone’s beliefs are nonsense is not an invitation to sensible reasoned debate.

That's appalling Helle and to think Amnesty International were once a respected organisation.

I do appreciate that the pain of the cognitive dissonance you'll be experiencing due to being asked to explain your poorly reasoned beliefs probably feels like bullying.

it isn't though

I am not anti-trans in the slightest, more than happy for transwomen to be transwomen but they are not women and there is nothing wrong with that.

No-one is bullying you here they are asking questions and for some clarity from you.

Can you not see how nonsensical this identifying as is? And indeed how dangerous it can be?

Only people who aren't women need to "identify" as one.

Here is how the language of ‘identifying as a woman/girl’ leads to harm

“Denying Women Human Rights
Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways, for the 'crime' of identifying as a girl.”

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/womens-rights-afghanistan-history

This is Amnesty international. This language is victim blaming. The women and girls are not ‘identifying’ as anything. They ARE women and girls. They cannot identify out of their horrific situation.

They are not ‘identifying’, they are living their material reality which is defined by established and well proven science. Not by philosophical belief.

Male people cannot become women by making a declaration or by any treatment or any extreme body modification. It just is not materially possible, regardless of a law that allows them to create a fiction of their sex category.

I'm another who doesn't identify as a woman. I am a woman due to that pesky biology

Do you not think that the idea of being able to choose to identify as whichever sex you prefer is a sign of unbelievable privilege? What would you say to a woman in Afghanistan right now? Or Iran? Do you have any empathy for anyone outside your circle of friends?

well that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of

Elle is very sure that the Jools chap from the article is a woman. She's happy to call people who disagree with her dinosaurs and TERFs. So she must be really clear on what a woman is, to be happy insulting people who disagree with her

I'm hoping she's going to give me a few bullet points of the criteria she uses to identify women that make her so very sure of herself

Me neither, Helle.

“How would they or anyone else know that they are living as a woman in that case?”

I can’t wait to hear this answer.

Loving your optimism helle

No I don't identify as a woman, I just am one. Why do you have a problem with that? Why are you insisting that I and Angela Merkel have to identify as a woman? Does your whole ideology fall apart if we don't?