‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

You did say that @Caliga. Benefit of the doubt, you were paraphrasing and reading between the lines, no? But just to be clear Helle didn't actually say "fuck off" to you, it was FreedomDogs.

No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

Nothing.

I should, of course, have said " rational or logical " inconsistencies. not 'irrational' and' illogical' inconsistencies😂

Related to this, ‘successful’ transwomen insisting they are women really undermines the position of less successful transwomen.

When attractively presented men claim they are women, like Ms Lebrun, arguably, they erase the problems of people like MsTickle whose biggest issue in daily life is not going to be struggling to access women’s internet corners. Maybe MsTickle is keen on acceptance online because of their less successful personal presentation.

Most transwomen do not experience acceptance and success the way India Willoughby and others do. Their success doesn’t offer representation to the average transwoman, I would argue. It undermines it.

I realise the above may be controversial. I’d appreciate it being dismembered for all to see rather than deleted, if at all possible.

Please educate me.

I would do so if I had - but I didn’t. I was discussing the ‘fuck off’ off statements with another poster - are you thinking of that?

I think pretending transwomen are women, is transphobic. It always shocks me on threads like this. Those claiming to be so supportive of the trans community, trying to erase them.

Trans women have completely different life experiences to women. They have completely different biology. TRAs love to talk about ‘trans erasure’, then participate in trying to erase a massive part of trans people lives by saying ‘Trans women are women’.

Trans women are experience the world as a trans woman. Which is different to a woman. By calling them a woman you are ‘erasing’ - huge part of who they are. Isn’t that ‘literal violence’?

Many many trans women don’t want or need to be called women. They know they won’t ever be women and don’t want their life experience to be erased because some (very vocal) TRAs have decided it should be that way.

Alot of people on the TWAW train, actually prove that it’s not true. They wouldn’t defend a woman who is telling other women they need to ‘get it together’ and be demure at work. In fact on Tiktok (where this ‘joke’ started) women who talk about how ‘women should be elegant’ are regularly called all sorts of names.

The ‘this person is a woman’ people are the most transphobic on these boards. Always amazes me that their transphobia isn’t deleted.

However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.

Completely agree.

It was my own cognitive dissonance that brought me to FWR in the first place.

I recognised that I was holding two beliefs that could be contradictory - “be kind” and a desire for single sex spaces. I actually put the whole topic aside in my head for a while recognising that as I didn’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. When I was ready to face it, I “did my research” and very quickly realised my biological realist position.

However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.

Cognitive dissonance is what is created when one tries to hold together two incompatible beliefs. The cognitive function detects a flaw or a conflict in the information processing -whereby one piece of information does not fit the established pattern and as a result the cognitive function is effectively paralysed.

What many of us don't accept, and seek clarity on, is what "identifying as" actually means. As soon as someone questions it their character gets insulted. For example just look at Elles posts. We cannot understand her thinking, seek clarity as to why she thinks both men and women are women. Even after five pages she hasn't explained it. I might not like her explanation but I would like to understand why she thinks it. A childish "because they can" isn't an explanation btw.

Exactly. Why is clarity and an explanation on identifying as and living as so difficult for those who believe in it to provide?

I have my own opinion as to why no clarity or explanation is forthcoming which is because it is based entirely on sexist and misogynistic stereotypes and those who say it and believe in it do not want to admit that. Otherwise they would have to admit that they believe the women and girls in Afghanistan are willingly accepting, enjoying and are complicit in their treatment by the Taliban. And not just the women and girls in present day Afghanistan, women and girls the world over since time immemorial are responsible for their own treatment and oppression at the hands of men because they have/are identifying as and living as women.

Nonsense really means "no sense"; as in the line of thought or argument displays irrational or illogical inconsistencies. To have a reasoned debate, you have to use reason, and that reasoning has to be open to scrutiny.

How can you talk about women when you have no clear definition of a woman?

We all know what a woman is, really - and that is an adult human female. Being a woman is primarily a biological reality, not a social concept.

Exactly.....the only characteristics which are common to all women are XX chromosomes and having been through female puberty - with all that implies. What women do or do not do with their female body; how they live their life is an individual matter, as well as a cultural matter in many societies.

The common characteristic which defines all women is that they have xx chromosomes and more overtly - the biological and bodily signifiers of the female sex.

Whether or not a female is fertile or not; has children or not; she will have a female reproductive system and the secondary sexual characteristics which support and mirror that.

While we are asking questions that would be helpful to understand, I think it would be useful to know whether people would find a male comedian who wore make up making the same ‘jokes’ about female sex stereotypes and how they have rejected them acceptable and funny? What about a drag queen?

Or is the person in the BBC article to be celebrated because they have been considered a ‘woman’ and therefore they are bravely defying female sex stereotypes?

Is why we are expected to accept this? And consider it a joke?

Why is Jools Lebrun eligible for special protection under the equality act and from the police and society generally, that ‘other’ women are not?

Would you have leapt to defend any female influencer from criticism about a tasteless joke with the same vigour as Ms Lebrun has been defended here?

Thank you. Maybe you could also apologize for saying that I have told you to fuck off.

General questions, not directed at specific peopie.

So again, what makes Jools Lebron a woman? What makes Roxy Tickle a woman? What is the thing which distinguishes these specific biological males from those who don't identify as women?

If it's that you know they're not female but think it's up to individual people to decide what sex they would prefer to be known by, please could people be open and clear about that, rather than dancing round it.

Thank you for recognising your mistake and apologising. I appreciate that, Helle.

In order to identify as something, you need to have a clear picture of what that thing is.

To say “anyone is a woman who identifies as a woman” reduces the word “woman” to just letters on a page. It divorces the word from any material real thing.

You can only imagine what it is to identify as a “woman” because you already know what a woman is, as defined by the class of adult human females that have been referred to by this word for hundreds of years.

If you remove “woman” from meaning a real physical thing, there is nothing to identify as.

The genderist view is either: based on sex stereotypes, or a quasi religious faith in "woman" and "man" essences that can be unrelated to sex. As pp said this is also based on stereotypes.

The gender critical view is that "gender" is a social construct imposed from outside on female and male people, which is often harmful, especially when it's used to oppress female people for sexual and reproductive reasons.

If you have quality evidence that men can change sex and turn into women then this board would be very interested in it. They might try to pick apart the report but everyone should question studies/statistics. It won't be personal against you

This. I have literally never seen anything I am convinced by in almost a decade and I'm perfectly able to explain why not in as much detail as it takes. Happy to engage politely as long as it's mutual.

Apologies if I have got you mixed up with another poster. There was a fair amount of effing and so on.

I’d post evidence if I didn’t think it would be immediately rejected; I’d happily join in discussion if it was not so hostile.

If you have quality evidence that men can change sex and turn into women then this board would be very interested in it. They might try to pick apart the report but everyone should question studies/statistics. It won't be personal against you.

If you haven't done this because you fear a pile on, then after the first few posts perhaps say it's overwhelming and you'd rather a one to one. Many of us are happy to sit on our hands and watch two educated people discuss something important., it has happened a few times before and I've personally learnt a lot from that kind of posting.

What many of us don't accept, and seek clarity on, is what "identifying as" actually means. As soon as someone questions it their character gets insulted. For example just look at Elles posts. We cannot understand her thinking, seek clarity as to why she thinks both men and women are women. Even after five pages she hasn't explained it. I might not like her explanation but I would like to understand why she thinks it. A childish "because they can" isn't an explanation btw.