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‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

592 replies

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 10:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

Jools Lebron on Jimmy Kimmel Live

Very demure, very mindful - are we missing joke of Jools Lebron trend?

A demure TikTok has gone viral, but is it an ironic joke or does it set unrealistic standards for women?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

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quantumbutterfly · 01/09/2024 20:12

😂

DeanElderberry · 01/09/2024 10:50

And yet, starting about 10 minutes into this programme of stuff from the RTÉ archive, a feminist who no one ever accused of watching her own behaviour from the outside (or of being demure) speaks well of her experience of mindfulness.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/bowman-sunday-830/2024/0901/1467760-bowman-sunday-830-sunday-1-september-2024/

be more Nell

Bowman: Sunday: 8.30 Sunday 1 September 2024

John Bowman's weekly archive programme

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/bowman-sunday-830/2024/0901/1467760-bowman-sunday-830-sunday-1-september-2024

quantumbutterfly · 30/08/2024 09:27

Indeed.

Mindful is constantly watching your own behaviour from the outside to avoid, being mocked or physically hurt. Learning to make a smart comeback ...but not too smart because hurty feelings can turn to anger and violence.

Mindful is knowing the risk of being alone in isolated places, or at night, or on public transport.

Toseland · 30/08/2024 08:47

This person has no idea what demure is actually like for women. This is fucking demure:

‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.
SensibleSigma · 28/08/2024 16:16

I can’t see how he thought he owned the phrase demure and mindful in the first place. Was it not out there already, and he’s just be the one who caught on?
I mean, why did his ‘demure and mindful’ catch on rather than anyone else’s? It’s a bit of appropriation if you ask me.

Grammarnut · 28/08/2024 16:08

Where'd he buy the Ming the Merciless eyebrows? He was done!

BunfightBetty · 27/08/2024 22:18

DuesToTheDirt · 27/08/2024 21:38

Do we think this non-story was fed to the BBC by that "news" agency that was featured on this group recently?

NEON

DuesToTheDirt · 27/08/2024 21:38

Do we think this non-story was fed to the BBC by that "news" agency that was featured on this group recently?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2024 20:32

Let's hope it's resolved in time for Christmas! Ideal naff secret Santa presents or unimaginative gifts for cousins you don't much like.

DeanElderberry · 27/08/2024 18:54

He's this week's Dylan Mulvaney.

Hectorscalling · 27/08/2024 18:11

JL believes the saying will set them up for life (and pay for their transition) and wanted to trademark so only they produce merchandise with the saying on.

It’s because they believe this saying is now so valuable people will be fighting for merchandise.

I don’t think they are expecting people to pay them for it. To be honest I am not sure I believe it all anyway.

I think that the person who trademarked it will ‘gift’ it to JL. JL has been crying all over social media about how this is their one chance to have a dream life. The cheerleaders are calling for blood. When, finally, JL gets the trademark people will be queuing to buy the merchandise to support this ‘underdog’.

I think it’s all part of the ‘story’. Poor me, one of life’s victims, oh look….now you can support me! Just buy ‘another’ water bottle.

Helleofabore · 27/08/2024 10:37

Gingernaut · 27/08/2024 10:12

Failed to trademark.early and lost it's chance to earn off it

https://mashable.com/article/very-demure-mindful-jools-lebron-trademark

That is a shame. But then, I always look at claims of lost potential income like that and wonder 'who is going to pay to use the term'? I have found that many people will simply avoid the term if they have to pay for it. It has a negative impact on usage.

DrBlackbird · 26/08/2024 23:47

GailBlancheViola · 25/08/2024 21:46

I doubt Angela Merkel identifies as a woman, she just is one.

What is living life as a woman?

Edited

Obviously it is wearing skirts, high heels, and makeup and having long hair. Plus lipstick. Maybe a handbag. How else does one ‘live’ as a woman?

Though I don’t tend to wear skirts or high heels or much makeup. I do have a handbag so that’s how I live as a woman.

Otherwise, I might have said living life as a woman involves being nervous as a single traveller. By being hyper vigilant of men late at night. By considering the possibility of being raped as I walk to my car in a deserted carpark. By being flashed in an alleyway (doubt it happens that often to a man) or having my crotch grabbed in a store in Kenya (possibly happens to men but not likely that often).

Or… as someone said, we all live our lives differently so the only common factor is having xx chromosomes.

WickedSerious · 26/08/2024 15:45

StealthSpinach · 26/08/2024 03:28

💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡

Yeah,we got there eventually.

Hectorscalling · 26/08/2024 15:19

Helleofabore · 26/08/2024 12:03

You know hector, I tried to articulate this yesterday and failed. But you have done it here.

Those who come onto threads and demand that these male people be treated only ever as if they are women, are treating that group as one homogeneous group. When they are not. And we know this because we listen to a wide range of voices from that group.

It is why I stopped using the term ‘trans rights activist’ and instead added an ‘extreme’ in front. Because I support transgender people being able to campaign for their rights, those that every person in the UK should have. Of course they should do that.

The ‘extreme transgender rights activist’ is the group who demand additional rights, extra rights over all other groups. These are the activists that demand that gender should be given priority over sex at all times rather than those who accept that sometimes sex does matter.

Thanks hector.

That a really good point. It is extreme trans rights activist, you are right.

But it has made me think, I don’t think I have ever come across someone who claims to be a TRA who isn’t extreme.

I know 2 trans people who would be offended to be called TRAs, because it’s become synonymous with the extreme ‘if a man says he is a woman then he is and should be treated like a woman in all circumstances’ and ‘women need to shut up and not complain’ and ‘your trans friends have so much to deal with, it’s your responsibility to do thinks for them. Do their food shop. Do their cleaning, or their clothes washing and take some of the mental load off them’ stances.

So I think to me TRAs are already an extreme if you see what I mean. But I do think the ‘extreme’ differentiates well, especially when using the written word like on here.

EarthSight · 26/08/2024 14:38

FreedomDogs · 25/08/2024 10:33

She's not mocking women, she's mocking gender norms. I thought "Gender Criticals" were meant to approve of that kind of thing.

I'm not familiar with this trend as others are, but I don't think the creator meant it to be taken that seriously. The reason why I believe it's caught on is partly because there's something hypnotic about the way the creator says the trademark sentence.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 26/08/2024 14:15

Caliga · 26/08/2024 13:52

@Helleofabore

*No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

I see. I missed that. I must have seen the 'fuck off' at that point and mixed it up for me. Easy to do, given all the knives being flung out at once. You can see it's somewhat rephrased though.

I'm not sure why you're trying to squeeze an apology out of me. I haven't done anything to you.

😮

So it's everybody else's fault you misread Helle's post. Got it.

Helleofabore · 26/08/2024 13:59

Caliga · 26/08/2024 13:52

@Helleofabore

*No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

I see. I missed that. I must have seen the 'fuck off' at that point and mixed it up for me. Easy to do, given all the knives being flung out at once. You can see it's somewhat rephrased though.

I'm not sure why you're trying to squeeze an apology out of me. I haven't done anything to you.

I see.

Caliga · 26/08/2024 13:52

@Helleofabore

*No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

I see. I missed that. I must have seen the 'fuck off' at that point and mixed it up for me. Easy to do, given all the knives being flung out at once. You can see it's somewhat rephrased though.

I'm not sure why you're trying to squeeze an apology out of me. I haven't done anything to you.

Helleofabore · 26/08/2024 12:03

Hectorscalling · 26/08/2024 10:49

I think pretending transwomen are women, is transphobic. It always shocks me on threads like this. Those claiming to be so supportive of the trans community, trying to erase them.

Trans women have completely different life experiences to women. They have completely different biology. TRAs love to talk about ‘trans erasure’, then participate in trying to erase a massive part of trans people lives by saying ‘Trans women are women’.

Trans women are experience the world as a trans woman. Which is different to a woman. By calling them a woman you are ‘erasing’ - huge part of who they are. Isn’t that ‘literal violence’?

Many many trans women don’t want or need to be called women. They know they won’t ever be women and don’t want their life experience to be erased because some (very vocal) TRAs have decided it should be that way.

Alot of people on the TWAW train, actually prove that it’s not true. They wouldn’t defend a woman who is telling other women they need to ‘get it together’ and be demure at work. In fact on Tiktok (where this ‘joke’ started) women who talk about how ‘women should be elegant’ are regularly called all sorts of names.

The ‘this person is a woman’ people are the most transphobic on these boards. Always amazes me that their transphobia isn’t deleted.

You know hector, I tried to articulate this yesterday and failed. But you have done it here.

Those who come onto threads and demand that these male people be treated only ever as if they are women, are treating that group as one homogeneous group. When they are not. And we know this because we listen to a wide range of voices from that group.

It is why I stopped using the term ‘trans rights activist’ and instead added an ‘extreme’ in front. Because I support transgender people being able to campaign for their rights, those that every person in the UK should have. Of course they should do that.

The ‘extreme transgender rights activist’ is the group who demand additional rights, extra rights over all other groups. These are the activists that demand that gender should be given priority over sex at all times rather than those who accept that sometimes sex does matter.

Thanks hector.

Helleofabore · 26/08/2024 11:52

“However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.”

Yes. This is important.

Therefore to convince others, they have to use some form of emotional reasoning, at times manipulation such as shame.

I am always keen to see if there is evidence that underpins the opinion and what it is that convinced someone. Sometimes that way we also get to see some new papers, studies, or points that haven’t yet been considered. I do live in hope.

While some people feel that their evidence gets pulled apart, the reality is that if that evidence doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, it is weak. Even if what we have is just a thought, or a grouping of weaker evidence that stands up logically and can be used for inference in the absence of clear evidence to support a specific statement, that is well worthy of consideration.

If you, general you, don’t have confidence about the evidence withstanding scrutiny and analysis, why would you hold an opinion so strongly? I am very keen to have evidence I present evaluated. Because when I look at the criticism of the evidence, I can judge if I have made an error in my understanding of it, or if I just need to work harder to find the truth amongst the mass of misinformation we are presented with from media and even sources we should find reliable every day. This is the way I learn new stuff every day.

I did used to think this was a common approach until I struck the mantra of ‘TWAW’. Now, I think it is not quite as common as I believed.

quantumbutterfly · 26/08/2024 11:44

@ThreeWordHarpy

You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

That's a succinct rewording of my faith analogy.

I've lost patience with 'be kind'.
Biological men are taking awards, opportunities, power and safety from biological women and we are bullied, mocked and shamed into accepting it. They take the words we have to describe ourselves and accuse us of trying to erase their existence.
I had wondered if the TRA frenzy was just the mindlessness of groupthink but I see it's a more deliberate subjugative power play than that.
They hurt childrens' minds and bodies with this ideology and try to frame it as care. It's an acceptable form of 'radicalisation' but somehow biological realists are the radicals. Astonishing.