The woke roll back continues

No - it does not work that way. This is healthcare. You deliver care and then you learn to coordinate the delivery of care and manage people. There is no reason why people from abroad or from any ethnicity or background can not progress. And no one signs up to a role to be stuck there and watch other people (with the main difference being that they are White) enter at their level and progress past them in record time.

And looking at the data - there is intersectionality with socioeconomic deprivation but it doesn't account for much of the difference.

Now I know class in the UK is not based on current income and based on more deeply held values or ancestral background or something - so I cannot comment on how class as defined like that correlates.

Nevertheless, White nurses (of all classes) progress significantly faster than others. And there is also racism claims brought by staff with the NHS paying billions out in claims. So there is money literally being thrown down the drain due to racism - on top of time of sick with stress/harrassment/bullying etc

This does not seem to be a simple example to me at all.

My guess would be that if you mapped this on to social class, you would see that is the real primary relationship here. There is probably a whole sector of working class people - including people recruited from abroad specifically for those jobs - who are working at the lower levels which require less educational investment.

That would not have anything to do with racism in the NHS. And I can't imagine it makes sense to be pushing people hired from abroad into higher band positions when the reason they were employed was to fill the jobs that are difficult to recruit for.

@PickAChew

t cannot be a free for all. If Norman held a firm belief that all women should stay at home to the point that he would refuse to work alongside a woman, whatever her role, you would not pander to that belief by sacking women or giving their tasks to men.

If Dave held the opinion that BAME people were evil so strongly that he refused to serve them in your shop you would want to be able to take action against him for not doing his job properly without him being able to claim that his was a protected belief.

If Stella held a firm belief that anything with her name on belonged to her, you would want to be able to sack her from her role in your warehouse for helping herself to crates of beer.

Well taking your examples:

Norman is free to hold whatever opinions he wishes in the privacy of his own head or home. However where those opinions prevent him from doing his job or where they break discrimination laws then his employer is entitled to fire him and the customer entitled to take action for discrimination.

The same goes for Dave.

Stella again can have whatever opinions she wishes in her own head but is breaking the law by theft of beer and her employer is entitled to both fire her and prosecute her.

Expressing an opinion provided it doesn't break the law or incite violence is permissible even if it causes offence to another person. Or makes them uncomfortable.

You are describing various potential manifestations of belief or opinion that are unlawful or discriminatory. Holding a protected belief or opinion does not mean that you can act in a discriminatory or unlawful way but the core belief or opinion is still protected. Obviously some opinions are not protected (like holocaust denial) but the fact remains that often when people discuss DEI they are not that bothered about political or belief diversity and I think that is a problem.

I have a STEM background. Area I am in is a mixture of male/female. Historically of course it was a male dominated specialty. Some areas of science have more women in it than men. However, things like engineering, maths and physics are still very male dominated. I don’t live in UK so it might be different there. The government has put huge money trying to get girls to choose these areas. However the number of females doing those types of careers isn’t changing. I really don’t think sexism is the full answer to why some career choices have a gender disparity.

It cannot be a free for all. If Norman held a firm belief that all women should stay at home to the point that he would refuse to work alongside a woman, whatever her role, you would not pander to that belief by sacking women or giving their tasks to men.

If Dave held the opinion that BAME people were evil so strongly that he refused to serve them in your shop you would want to be able to take action against him for not doing his job properly without him being able to claim that his was a protected belief.

If Stella held a firm belief that anything with her name on belonged to her, you would want to be able to sack her from her role in your warehouse for helping herself to crates of beer.

Its a shame but I think DEI initiatives have gone to far in some organisations. In my old job DEI was pushed relentlessly, we had it written as the first objective in our appraisals. In one excruciating meeting we were reminded that it wasn't enough to be inclusive, we had to give examples where we had addressed our colleagues non inclusive behaviour. Never mind that we were a small office that had never had issues with DEI, we all sat there in silence as no one could think of an example, no one had ever made a complaint and we all agreed non of us had witnessed any examples. We wasted hours on hypothetical scenarios then all went back to work feeling it was a complete waste of time.

@PickAChew

"Opinion is not a protected characteristic."

That's rather scary- I do hope you aren't suggesting that there can't be diversity of opinions with regards to DEI or for that matter anything else.

Not true. Philosophical belief and political opinion are protected.

One of the areas this is a real problem is in universities where the vast majority of lecturers are left leaning. Where is the push to diversify so there is a balance?

Opinion is not a protected characteristic.

Diversity policies have become all about trans people. Has anyone recently attended any training about eliminating misogyny or meetings to discuss how the workplace/documents can be more accessible to people who may struggle at present? Using unclear compelled language has harmed access to services. Anyone still involved in company outreach programmes to inspire those still at school? That is the sort of thing that has fallen by the wayside because it's all become about a very vocal minority.

I wont be celebrating the changes but I do understand them and hope that businesses will refocus their efforts where they can be beneficial.

I think those who are defending workplace DEI policies here are (rightly) defending what they believe those policies should be aiming to achieve.

The problem is that in reality, what is a good and noble idea or intent is invariably poorly thought through in its execution. Because to do it properly is hard, and to be honest requires fundamental change at a societal level. No corporate firm can realistically achieve that, so they stick to the easy 'virtue signalling' wins.

I don't think it's a bad thing that we question whether DEI policies, as they are, actually achieve their purpose. In fact I think it's necessary if we truly want them to achieve what they're supposed to.

@Combattingthemoaners

"The woke left are who? There is no one stopping anyone doing any sort of job if you take that logic. However, there are invisible glass ceilings and barriers or gender expectations that make many jobs unachievable for a lot of people."

The woke left are those that want to achieve equality of outcome through quotas rather than equality of opportunity allowing for individual freedom of choice.

What is stopping anyone doing any sort of job is knowledge, training and suitability for the job. Now I might really want to be a heart surgeon but if I don't have the experience then I won't get the job. I might apply for a senior job which I am capable of doing but if there are 300 equally able candidates then my chances are low.

The biggest obstacle to women progressing to higher level jobs is access to affordable and quality childcare not invisible glass ceilings".

Stating that the cards are stacked against women or certain ethnic minorities stops people trying and destroys ambitions which is far more harmful than any vestiges of racism or sexism that are still left in hiring processes.

The problem for me with DEI is that it never includes diversity of opinion. And if you poke holes in DEI as a concept there is a tendency for people to claim that you are pro-discrimination or happy with only white males at the top of organisations. There are demonstrably many issues with DEI policies plus it has become a massive industry that is corrupt, obsessed with identity and often discriminatory in it's attempts to be "inclusive". It really is no wonder that people are pushing back.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

e it is societal expectations that makes it sp much harder for a girl to say she wants to be a plumber because plumber is not something that is shown in society as a role for females. The same is true for childcare, males won't go into it as its portrayed as a female job. It is not a free choice in an equal society

There are no institutional barriers preventing girls becoming plumbers indeed quite the opposite in that it is easier for a female to become a plumber than a male. Regardless of what is the norm or what sex the majority of plumbers there is no longer any widespread societal expectation that they should be male.

If I contracted a plumber and a woman arrived- yes my first instinct would be surprise but in a "good on you" way and secondly I would feel more comfortable having a woman in the house than a man if I was on my own.

Sure there would be some older dinosaur men who would react negatively but so long as the female plumber did a good job then hopefully this would break down such negativity.

But it should come down to freedom of choice- if a young woman wants to become a plumber or a young man a primary school teacher then crack on - embrace the positive feedback and ignore the negative feedback.

What the woke left is trying to do is create quotas which removes that freedom of choice.

Do the black footballers in the Premier League a number of whom are exceptionally wealthy want to own Clubs or want to go into management?

Many of the Premiership clubs are owned by people who are not white.

The woke left are who? There is no one stopping anyone doing any sort of job if you take that logic. However, there are invisible glass ceilings and barriers or gender expectations that make many jobs unachievable for a lot of people.

@1dayatatime it is societal expectations that makes it sp much harder for a girl to say she wants to be a plumber because plumber is not something that is shown in society as a role for females. The same is true for childcare, males won't go into it as its portrayed as a female job. It is not a free choice in an equal society

I’ve replied to this already but your argument is far too simplistic. When I have said reflective I mean reflect different ethnicities, abilities, classes, gender, ages, disabilities etc. Not just whether someone is black or white. I don’t therefore understand choosing that specific example because it’s far too simplistic and like I said previously, where are all the black managers and owners in the PL if there really is no issue with social mobility or opportunities or discrimination?

Something that was started with good intentions has gone out of control, and this is the outcome of that.

It's the same reason that LGBTQ+ acceptance is slipping back.
This is the pendulum swinging too far back the other way due to heavy-handed activists turning many people away from their cause.

It's what we've been warning about on this board for years.

Actions meet consequences.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

"It is sexism though, its the societal expectations that are put on both girls and boys from a young age, caretakers are male, teachers are female at primary"

Is it societal expectations or simply freedom of choice? If a young girl stated she wanted to be a plumber when older - most people would say "good on you", sure there would be some counter pressure from her peers but there are no institutional barriers preventing her. Equally there are no institutional barriers preventing men becoming primary school teachers but there is a lack of men freely choosing to do so.

The problem with the woke hard left is that they want to create a workplace across all sectors that reflects society even if that comes at the price of freedom of choice or simply what candidate is best for the job.

Yes, it's definitely all trans people's fault 🙄

"Woke" is just the new way of saying any attempts to progress society are"political correctness gone mad", and that was a thing way before the trans debate went mainstream. If someone hates trans people so much they're happy to also throw gay people, disabled people and people of colour under the bus along with them, that's their own fault and their own problem. Trans people aren't responsible for other people's bigotry.

Completely scrapping any and all DEI policy is not a positive thing. What so many companies a d organisations do need to do is go back to the drawing board and ensure that such policies are as balanced as possible and not disproportionately influenced by any one agenda.

It is not "woke" to recognise that a pregnant woman under consultant care may need a lot of time off for appointments, at set times because that's when the clinics run, someone with a physical disability may need an adapted workstation or that it's not acceptable to take the piss out of a gay man or or ostracise a Muslim.

In my large global company we have a large DEI dept. Currently HR are always putting up a chart saying that the goal is by 2025 to have 30% women in senior positions. Yay. …. but I have had it confirmed that women means self Id and that 30% women could in fact mean 100% men as the 30% women can be blokes with womanly feels. I have raised this as an issue and said it’s discriminatory to real women. In our HR records you can self id as various nonsense categories , there is no longer sex reporting as such.
Every time we have a global meeting now and someone spouts this target I will on the chat function point out that it’s not necessarily real women so what’s the point 🤷🏻‍♀️

Indeed - the crafting of solutions has been poor in most places. But equality of opportunity is still a viable, business savvy goal. We just need to get the methods right