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Original poster

Another crack in the wall - Denmark

58 replies

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:37

There has been the start of an interesting debate in Denmark where the serving minister for Digitalisation and Equality, Marie Bjerre (Venstre) has published an opinon piece (Kronik) in which she argues for a change of focus in the trans debate and a recognition that sex based realities and the rights and boundaries of women need to be considered. This has obviously provoked a backlash from trans activist groups but she has stood by her guns, giving further TV interviews and adressing an event at Cophenhagen Pride last week (where she was not warmly recieved and many turned their backs on her) in which she continues to call for a change in the debate with focus to balancing the rights of all rather than trans demands
She uses the Danish performance artist/provokeur Ibbi Pippi as an example of the issues arising

This is the article in Danish but I will post a (poor) translation of the main points in the next post
https://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/kronik/ECE17337761/ibipippi-har-faaet-mine-oejne-op-for-hvor-problematisk-juridisk-koensskifte-er/

A small thing in a small and very liberal/accepting nation (and one of the first to bring in self ID due to a Dentons Playbook style campaign) but just another sign of the debate changing worldwide

Ibi-Pippi har fået mine øjne op for, hvor problematisk juridisk kønsskifte er

Hvis vi overser det faktum, at der kun findes to biologiske køn, er vi ikke bare i overhængende fare for at lande et skørt sted. Den outrerede identitetspolitisk debat kommer til at skygge for de ligestillingsproblemer, der reelt findes.

https://jyllands-posten.dk/debat/kronik/ECE17337761/ibipippi-har-faaet-mine-oejne-op-for-hvor-problematisk-juridisk-koensskifte-er

OP posts:
Cambiarenome · 22/08/2024 10:14

yetanotherusernameAgain · 22/08/2024 08:51

Here's an article about the crime itself.

https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/asger-jorn-painting-vandalized-denmark-1234627162/

That's Ibi-Pippi? Of course, appearance shouldn't count for anything here but they're not even trying. Is it a deliberate provocation to promote debate, I wonder?

Edited to say, just read that you said it is indeed performance art.

StellaOlivetti · 22/08/2024 10:00

Thank you for this. Another crack in the wall, indeed. And I love the Kierkegaard quotation.

CocoapuffPuff · 22/08/2024 09:51

but she has countered that by stating that it shouldnt need to happen before setting boundaries.

She's right.

That principle was previously widely used, and was known as "safeguarding".

Now it has been eroded by contamination (lovely word, I'm using that forever) and will have to be rebuilt, almost from scratch.

It's nauseating that we have to do all that work again.

TheKeatingFive · 22/08/2024 09:30

Great article thanks for posting

Original poster
Didactylos · 22/08/2024 09:16

The minister has come in for a lot of critisism for not being able to name any Danish examples of the problem (men in womans spaces) apart from Ibi Pippi who is doing it as performance art, (international examples havent been raised much) - but she has countered that by stating that it shouldnt need to happen before setting boundaries.

OP posts:
Igmum · 22/08/2024 09:14

Great speech, she sounds so sensible. I have an image of lots of middle aged Danish citizens in warm jumpers quietly nodding along.

Thank you for this @Didactylos so good to see women in power speaking out.

Fenlandia · 22/08/2024 09:07

I don't speak Danish but I think I know what 'woke minefelt' is in the cartoon 😉

CocoapuffPuff · 22/08/2024 09:05

I appreciate the translation issue, but I do prefer contaminated. Polluted is bloody good too. That's how I feel about the whole shebang. Polluted. Contaminated.

Original poster
Didactylos · 22/08/2024 08:58

bit of google translate there Im afraid.

The word used was 'forurenet' which loosely translates as polluted/contaminated, literally to make impure/unclean
Perhaps a stronger choice of word that used in english - we might have said something milder like confused by, mixed with, adulterated?

OP posts:
CocoapuffPuff · 22/08/2024 08:52

But seriously, it damages women's legal position if research on women's biology is contaminated with answers from biological men

Contaminated.

Such a good choice of word. That's it, isn't it.

Womens EVERYTHING is being contaminated by men.

I've not seen that used for the gender Id crap before but I shall use it myself from now on. Its perfect.

FabulousFryingpan · 22/08/2024 08:42

Thanks @Didactylos

FrancescaContini · 22/08/2024 08:38

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:51

One last Danish quote which seems very relevant and pragmatic

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Soren Kierkegaard

Fantastic quote! And great article, too.

Original poster
Didactylos · 22/08/2024 08:34

Venstre is now effectively a social conservative party - confusingly named 'Left' as it was closer to the left wing when started - with a tradition of liberalism
The current coalition in Denmark is made up of Social Democrats, Moderates and Venstre - and was deliberately negotiated to be a centrist coalition with a broad input from left to right. Danish politics tends to produce coalitions with lots of horsetrading, and no huge swings between right and left. Venstre is to the right but not extremist

Ive been trying to find a political axis diagram to show the various parties but am failing miserably, so heres a wiki list in english for anyone interested
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark

List of political parties in Denmark - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark

OP posts:
Lovelyview · 22/08/2024 08:32

Great article. She's a brave woman.

DrBlackbird · 22/08/2024 08:32

Agree that this is a very welcome statement and also how it would’ve been even better for this to come from a left leaning politician.

But it is still crazy that we’re all lauding this female politician for simply stating the obvious.

FabulousFryingpan · 22/08/2024 08:27

OldCrone · 22/08/2024 08:13

Google tells me that Venstre is a centre right party. So like the UK Conservatives? I was hoping someone on the left was breaking ranks. I don't know what it's going to take to see a shift in attitude on the left.

But Marie Bjerre sounds as though she's been well and truly peaked.

No, Venstre means Left (Høyre would be Right). They' re liberal in the traditional sense, socially left and fiscally conservative.

benefitstaxcredithelp · 22/08/2024 08:22

A sensible. Intelligent article in a sea of crazy. Thanks for posting.

RantyMcRanterton · 22/08/2024 08:16

Thank you for the translation amd that quote as well.

OldCrone · 22/08/2024 08:13

Google tells me that Venstre is a centre right party. So like the UK Conservatives? I was hoping someone on the left was breaking ranks. I don't know what it's going to take to see a shift in attitude on the left.

But Marie Bjerre sounds as though she's been well and truly peaked.

AnnaMagnani · 22/08/2024 08:12

Danes are totally OK with nudity but they still have female and male changing rooms.

kiterunning · 22/08/2024 08:11

Didactylos · 22/08/2024 07:51

One last Danish quote which seems very relevant and pragmatic

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Soren Kierkegaard

I love that.

kiterunning · 22/08/2024 08:08

Great news from Denmark.This pernicious ideology is slowly being replaced by realism and sanity.

Yougetmoreofwhatyoufocuson · 22/08/2024 07:59

The voice of reason, I hope she is heard world wide. Time for the tide to turn.
My granddaughter introduced me to her ‘non binary ‘ friend, a five year old boy and his grinning mother. It can only come from her as he looked completely blank while my granddaughter explained to me that he didn’t feel like a boy. A child will do anything pretty much anything for a parent’s approval and as I looked at his sweet little confused face it just felt like child abuse.