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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August

428 replies

Wearingmybluejumper · 21/08/2024 07:12

The long awaited decision will apparently be live-streamed at 9 am Friday 23 August (AEST). See screenshot from X below.
I feel suddenly anxious!!

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August
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13
ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:26

Cooking, recipes and housing, eh? I thought it was a dating app.

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:26

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-23/nsw-sydney-giggle-transgender-discrimination-court-judgment/104260546

'Sex Discrimination Commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission Anna Cody said she was "happy" discrimination had been recognised in the judgement.
"We now know that ... you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity," Dr Cody said.

"I think that this judgement sends the message that we want an inclusive society in which all can participate, and that includes trans people who have a range of sexual orientations.
"She [Ms Tickle] wanted the ability to connect with other women around cooking, around recipes, around housing ... to be able to connect with people."'

Transgender woman's exclusion from female-only app was unlawful, judge finds

The exclusion of a transgender woman from a female-only app constituted unlawful discrimination due to gender identity, according to a landmark Federal Court ruling.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-23/nsw-sydney-giggle-transgender-discrimination-court-judgment/104260546

Fenlandia · 23/08/2024 09:21

DoIWantTo · 23/08/2024 09:06

Summary judgement “sex is changable”. Jesus wept.

How can a judge get away with saying such nonsense? If that judge said the moon was made of cheese would Elon Musk get rights to mine it and open a dairy company?

DrBlackbird · 23/08/2024 09:21

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 07:54

You would think that this reporter knows full well what it means to be a woman. It’s pretty unlikely that Berlusconi would mansplain a handshake to another man (or indeed, a trans woman).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-65877713

WickedSerious · 23/08/2024 09:12

Chewbecca · 23/08/2024 09:00

But Justice Robert Bromwich said in his decision on Friday that case law has consistently found sex is “changeable and not necessarily binary”, ultimately dismissing Giggle’s argument.

😠😠😠

I'd like to think that'll be the biggest load of arse juice I read this week,but I doubt it.

CorruptedCauldron · 23/08/2024 09:08

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 23/08/2024 09:00

Thanks for posting that @CorruptedCauldron

It's cheered me up a bit. 👍🏻

You’re welcome. I definitely needed cheering up after seeing the verdict!

DoIWantTo · 23/08/2024 09:06

Summary judgement “sex is changable”. Jesus wept.

popeydokey · 23/08/2024 09:01

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:47

There are exemptions, but if gender identity = sex then they're toothless against claimants like Tickle.

See sections 30-47: https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A02868/latest/text

If gender id = sex, then it follows that sex = gender id. They are one and the same thing, and changeable.

So no-one can have a gender id that "mismatches" their sex.

Have they just erased the actual existence of trans people?

Under Aus law, how could anyone have a gender id that differs from their sex? Is everyone "cis" now? What is a trans person and how could anyone be discriminated against for being trans?

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 23/08/2024 09:00

Thanks for posting that @CorruptedCauldron

It's cheered me up a bit. 👍🏻

Chewbecca · 23/08/2024 09:00

But Justice Robert Bromwich said in his decision on Friday that case law has consistently found sex is “changeable and not necessarily binary”, ultimately dismissing Giggle’s argument.

😠😠😠

CorruptedCauldron · 23/08/2024 08:58

I found this tweet heartening, from user Jess (anonotanon).

x.com/anonotanon/status/1826772020107108503

Here's the thing, #TickleVGiggle was always going to turn out this way. If you're surprised, let that go now. The verdict was always going to be weak and frustrating: "Tickle is a woman becausebecausebecause, gender identity mumblemumble adjourned".

Sall knew this better than anyone. Australia, young as we are, is in general short-sighted yet legacy-obsessed. Julia Gillard, Australia's first female Prime Minister, proved herself in 2013 to be no different. Without public consultation, she altered Australia's Sex Discrimination Act. She had biological definitions of sex removed, added gender identity as a protected characteristic (i.e., you're a woman/cat/magical air fryer if you simply identify as that), and conflated sex and these magical genders as the same thing. What does this mean? That apparently people have rights based on their actual sex, and yet have equal rights based on their made-up sex. It's a critical contradiction-- nobody can rely on protection from discrimination on the basis of their sex while anybody can identify as that sex.

If a real woman tells a man-who-identifies-as-a-woman to get out of her work bathroom, who does the law protect? The woman on the basis of her sex? Or the man on the basis of his identity? This is what Tickle V Giggle addressed, but with a female-only app instead of a bathroom. And, again, the verdict was always going to be "Tickle is a woman becausebecausebecause, gender identity mumblemumble adjourned".

A judge was asked to decide what takes precedent in Australia’s newly-crayoned discrimination laws: Sall’s rights as a woman, or Tickle’s rights as a man who calls himself a woman. But, unfortunately, there was always a third option and it was always going to be the one Bromwich chose: to not answer the question at all. He could simply ignore the gross conflicts in the laws, blast past the unconstitutionality of those laws, the conflict with the UN CEDAW treaty (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women), and just choose either Sall’s rights or Tickle’s rights with a hand over one eye. Australia’s sex discrimination laws are Choose Your Own Adventure, and Bromwich chose the easiest road. The one we always knew he would.

If you think this verdict damns Australian women, you’re wrong. It’s disgusting of course, there is no avoiding the sting of being dismissed and gaslit by our very justice system, but I cannot stress enough: This was always going to be outcome. And this was never the hard target. The hard target is getting our broken systems fixed so this never happens again.

So if you’re wondering what happens next, it’s that. It's the appeal. It's the High Court. Better still, the farce that was Tickle V Giggle is the perfect launchpad for what happens next. So buckle up. This is when it gets really interesting. #IStandWithSallGrover

BiscuityBoyle · 23/08/2024 08:57

I’m just catching up on this story after reading it on the BBC website.
I love the line about how he must be a man otherwise there wouldn’t be a case to answer.

highame · 23/08/2024 08:53

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:47

There are exemptions, but if gender identity = sex then they're toothless against claimants like Tickle.

See sections 30-47: https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A02868/latest/text

I'd like to see the gender argument succeed in some of the countries signed up to CEDAW. The trans debate was not around at that time and cannot now be argued that TWAW therefore CEDAW applies. I imagine that governments around the world will have to debate and accept, or withdraw from CEDAW, or CEDAW amends. All very, very, messy. Anyone expect anything less?

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:50

Here's the relevant definition of "gender identity":

gender identity means the gender‑related identity, appearance or mannerisms or other gender‑related characteristics of a person (whether by way of medical intervention or not), with or without regard to the person’s designated sex at birth.

eatfigs · 23/08/2024 08:49

A disappointing outcome which I hope can be appealed.

However I was heartened by reading in the judgement what a miserable emotional state Roxy Tickle has been experiencing, as a result of his behaviour and the negative reaction to it as the case has been publicised worldwide. A pyrrhic victory for him, which I hope gives him no joy or comfort.

borntobequiet · 23/08/2024 08:47

Oh well. More gardening.
So infuriating.

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:47

There are exemptions, but if gender identity = sex then they're toothless against claimants like Tickle.

See sections 30-47: https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A02868/latest/text

highame · 23/08/2024 08:44

The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly, is often described as an international bill of rights for women. Consisting of a preamble and 30 articles, it defines what constitutes discrimination against women and sets up an agenda for national action to end such discrimination.

The Convention defines discrimination against women as "...any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field."

The light at the end of the tunnel

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 08:41

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:37

The relevant law, Sex Discrimination Act 1984 - Section 5B Discrimination on the ground of gender identity:

(2) For the purposes of this Act, a person (the discriminator) discriminates against another person (the aggrieved person) on the ground of the aggrieved person's gender identity if the discriminator imposes, or proposes to impose, a condition, requirement or practice that has, or is likely to have, the effect of disadvantaging persons who have the same gender identity as the aggrieved person.

Is the problem that there are no lawful exceptions for gi, like for lawful sex discrimination?

Gingernaut · 23/08/2024 08:37

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:14

Odd that the BBC did not choose to use Tickles photo

The article has been updated

Tickle's face is there now

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:37

The relevant law, Sex Discrimination Act 1984 - Section 5B Discrimination on the ground of gender identity:

(2) For the purposes of this Act, a person (the discriminator) discriminates against another person (the aggrieved person) on the ground of the aggrieved person's gender identity if the discriminator imposes, or proposes to impose, a condition, requirement or practice that has, or is likely to have, the effect of disadvantaging persons who have the same gender identity as the aggrieved person.

Teddleshon · 23/08/2024 08:36

Please women in Australia, just WAKE UP.

Igmum · 23/08/2024 08:35

Bad news but not entirely unexpected. Here's to the appeal where they might do things differently. Good luck Sal