Israel society debates the right to rape

We understand the article differently. From my understanding, Finance Minister Bazalel Smotrich wanted an investigation solely into whoever leaked the video because of the damage it caused to Israel and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, argued that anything, including gang rape was permissable in defence of Israel.

That means to me, that members of the government are either indifferent to the rape or condoning it. They are in the government, so people at government level are endorsing it.

There are far-right nut jobs in every country, ours included (if people would care to cast their minds back a few days). Based on way this thread is positioned, you could say that in the UK we're debating killing all the migrants or sending them home - that's not accurate. Mobs of people on the fringes of society are airing views found contemptible by most.

Obviously there are some revolting things going on in the current conflict, but to indicate that Israel as a state and at the government level is endorsing that is not my takeaway from those articles - the soldiers in question were literally arrested by the state. Most people there are not represented by this clearly appallling behaviour.

You lot need to learn to read to the end of the article. 🙄

A spokesperson for the IDF said: “The IDF rejects those baseless accusations. The IDF operates according to international law. Without precise details or proof of individual cases it is not possible for us to examine them in depth.”

In my opinion, the reason it's been treated differently is because there is video evidence of the attack with the soldiers easily identifiable.

However from the UN report, it's very troubling that not only are women being assaulted but they are being attacked whilst fleeing and are disappearing.

I don’t think I need to add the fact that ZERO IDF soldiers have been arrested for raping women/girls during this current conflict. As horrific as the rape of the teen boy was, he’s got more of a chance to get justice as at least there have been arrests.

Anyway,
back on topic. This UN report released in February did not get nearly as much attention as it should have:

”A United Nations human rights panel has called for an independent investigation into reports that Palestinian women and girls have been sexually abused by Israeli soldiers.
In a collective statement on Monday, the seven experts said they were "distressed" by reports that male Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officers had raped, assaulted, and strip-searched female prisoners in Gaza.
They highlighted reports that IDF soldiers had taken photos of prisoners in degrading situations and uploaded them to the internet, as well as claims that an unknown number of Palestinian women and children had gone missing after being detained.

They also expressed "shock" at reports that the IDF had deliberately targeted female civilians even while they were fleeing or seeking shelter from Israeli attacks.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/idf-sexual-abuse-palestine-gaza-b2498888.html

Yes they have 13,000 full time staff and with volunteers around 30,000 total. So the fact that the independent UN investigation (it wasn’t done by UNWRA on itself) found that maybe for 9 people they have evidence that indicates they may have been involved in Oct 7th is really proof UNWRA has no links to Hamas.

We have much higher % of MPs where evidence suggests they may have links to Putin/Russia and may have been involved in tampering with our elections.

Doesn’t make our Parliament Russian run….or an arm of Putin

It’s too tiny a number.

Too, the may have is tenuous at best, there is a likelihood the workers are innocent.

What do you mean “needs to be broadened to Oct 7th”- the topic was broadened to include

• Bosnia genocide and rape
• Oct 7th Israeli victims & Israeli hostages
• female Palestinian prisoners
• female IDF prison guards ‘pimped’ to Palestinian prisoners by the own colleagues for rape
• British soldiers raping teen British girls
• USA soldiers rape & abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Grahib
• several comments regarding use and justifucation of rape in all conflicts

And that is just by the end of page 1 of this thread.

This thread has not been one sided from the start.

It’s not false, you simply are failing to read the full context of the OP and are nitpicking the title. It’s laziness on your part.

The thread starter was worded to suggest that Israeli society is having debates as to whether to de-criminalise rape

Certain parts of Israel are debating whether rape is justified as part of torture of detained terrorism suspects. That is what the articles all discuss and what all the MKs justifying it are referring to. What you are calling “blatantly false” is your jumping to an erroneous conclusion that Isrsel is discussing decriminalising rape by reading a title and not the rest of the stories….stories published by Israel’s leading news source btw, the Times of Israel, which are not a Hamas propaganda channel.

The only news source I have linked is The Times of Israel, and you are calling them a “propaganda channel for Hamas”?!

@Rymeswithpunt UNWRA has about 30,000 employees, mostly Palestinian. I'm not disputing the existence of UNWRA and the need for it or suggesting that a small number of staff members participating in the October 7th attack means it should be defunded.

As I'm aware of and have considered all the aspects, I don't think I'm the one struggling to grasp perspectives or meaning here although I understand the process might be confusing to some, coupled with Haq and Lazzarini's deliberately obtuse statements.

Israeli authorities supplied names and allegations to UNWRA, but not their sources (according to UNWRA, the Israelis neither confirmed nor denied this one way or the other). UNWRA investigated and the UNWRA spokesman himself said they found sufficient information from their own investigation that the staff's involvement in October 7th was likely or highly likely and therefore, acted accordingly. It's not difficult to look any of this up but do stay rigid if that's where you're comfortable.

But please don't attempt this because it will no doubt involve more fudging and hedging and I was just answering a PP's question rather than wanting a pointless debate about UNWRA.

The initial question was about what had the Israeli Government done.

The Israeli Government never supplied either to UNWRA or anyone else. But based on publicly stated allegations UNWRA carried out an investigation and published their report.

And the comments about why UNWRA fired staff without being able to provide actual evidence has been or was discussed widely, with the suggestion that it could in other circumstances have led to claims of unfair dismissal.

Because you aren't aware of this or thought this, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

And to entertain the idea of a political sop in the situation between Gaza and Israel, is fairly niave.

What do you think is going on in the ceasefire negotiations now.

But perfectly understand that if you have a rigid perspective on the situation of course anyone saying something different will be hard for you to make sense of.

@IwantToRetire Israeli authorities initially carried out their own investigation, hence their passing on the names of suspected staff members to UNWRA, which UNWRA then investigated. Portraying the Israeli investigation versus UNWRA's similarly opaque investigative process as "bleating to the media" is also absurd and reductive. When making accusations of sweeping generalisations, maybe start with The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

So not a superior ethical position for UNWRA to fire the staff members because based on initial Israeli intelligence, they uncovered sufficient evidence during their own investigation of staff involvement and wanted to do the right thing, rather they did it to get the Israeli government off their backs? Why wouldn't they have just said there was insufficient evidence for all, rather than it being likely or highly likely the fired staff members were involved in October 7th? Make it make sense.*

*But please don't attempt this because it will no doubt involve more fudging and hedging and I was just answering a PP's question rather than wanting a pointless debate about UNWRA.

ETA forgot to quote, so tagged.

I really dont understand how posters who reply with these sweeping generalisations dont realise how much they harm the points they were trying to make.

Without repeating my whole reply I said:

Israel has never provided evenidence to UNRWA
UNRWA nevertheless went ahead with an investigation and reported what they had found (quote in my post)

To then leap into a fantasy world where about my supposed position on both UNRWA and the Iraeli government is just absurd.

Ethically superior because UNWRA did carry about an investigation, not just bleat to the media allegations.

The firings were not based on conclusive evidence and would in any normal employment process, have led to claims of unfair dismissal. But were presumably carried out as a political sop to Israel.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 16:46

The rapes of October 7th were widely dismissed and/or denied, and even on this board, shamefully!

By a minority of irrational oddballs, fortunately.

The rapes of October 7th were widely dismissed and/or denied, and even on this board, shamefully!

The disgusting rape and violence on 7th October have been and are regularly discussed.

This is about the Israeli government's use and support of rape. It does go some way to explain the gang rapes carried out by IDF soldiers when off duty.

The promotion and legitimisation of rape culture is a feminist issue @Shortshriftandlethal.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:20

Lots of " hijacking" going on, I see...which seems to amount to people pushing back against a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred.

Pointing out confirmed cases, with evidence to support them, of Israeli torture, rape and other war crimes - not even denied by the Israeli authorities - is not "a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred."

Claiming that is a transparent attempt to use emotional blackmail, to try to hide what they do. We all know that Hamas are vile, it's been done to death on MN, in the aftermath of their attack last year. Israel appear to be just as bad.

Lots of " hijacking" going on, I see...which seems to amount to people pushing back against a totally one sided, blatant act of anti Israel hatred.

This thread has been placed in the FWR section of the forum....yet the victim of the rape was a male detainee. As horrible as that incident was, what has it got to do with this board? If we are going to talk about rape in war - then the topic needs to be broadened out to include the rapes committed against women and children on October 7th and against those being held hostage in Gaza.

The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

I suppose if your default position is that the Israeli government is always lying and UNWRA is always telling the truth (rather than Farhan Haq and Philippe Lazzarini's semantic hedging to cover their arses), then this rather far fetched leap would of course make sense. The UN also chose not to reveal the sufficient information they have about the nine staff members' involvement in October 7th that led to their firing-why is that and how does that make them ethically superior?

Has the Israeli government proved the involvement of Unrwa staff in Hamas or Islamic Jihad? I'm aware they've made allegations but wasn't aware it had been proved

No Israel has no proved anything as it made allegations and then and continues to fail to provide an evidence.

The purpose of the allegations was to try and end funding to UNRWA because it is part of the committment by the UN to continue to support Palestinian who became refugees when their land was taken from them (under western control) to form the state of Israel.

Israel has had a long standing agenda to get UNRWA disbanded as it is a reminder that there are Palestinian refugees.

The fact that UNRWA acted with due dilligence on unsubstantiated allegations shows the UNRWA has more ethics than the Israeli Government.

Given that Hamas in the controlling group in Gaza it is hardly surprising that many who live and work there have connections through this very fact.

So I dont doubt that some UNRWA staff have direct connections to Hamas, but the fact is the unsubstantiated allegations by Israel led to funding cuts by posture politic Governments, in breach of their actual committments to UNRWA. Much the same as if the UK Government told a local authority because of allegations against some of their staff they would stop all further payments to the local authority.

If you read the actual UN report you will see that throughout it only says may in all instances.

“The OIOS investigation’s outcomes are the following:

“In one case, no evidence was obtained by OIOS to support the allegations of the staff member’s involvement. That staff member has rejoined the Agency.

“In nine other cases, the evidence obtained by OIOS was insufficient to support the staff members’ involvement and the OIOS investigation of them is now closed.

“For the remaining nine cases, the evidence – if authenticated and corroborated – could indicate that the UNRWA staff members may have been involved in the attacks of 7 October.

“I have decided that in the case of these remaining nine staff members, they cannot work for UNRWA. All contracts of these staff members will be terminated in the interest of the Agency.
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/investigation-completed-allegations-unrwa-staff-participation-7-october

If this were say the report of a local authority acting on unsubstantiated accusations made by central government, and nine staff were suspended, there would immediately be an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal.

Its all just a politcal game.

Its just as likely the nine who the report says MAY be guilty were sacked to satisfy the hypocritical Governments who stopped their financial obligations to UNRWA. Then they would have to say we acted in haste. They can smugly say, look we were right.

And just a reminder Israel has never provided any evidence. It was a fishing exercise.

It was purely a political move to try and undermine UNRWA, becaue a long term goal is to disband UNRWA.