Imane Khelif

@annejumps "Oh it's all ridiculous, I'm not even sure where to start."

Same, I do a lot of headdesk-ing in my mind - not only about this topic.

The conversation about looks and also the co-opting of IK by the TRA centers very much on a debate about mainstream beauty standards.

The concept goes as follows: women shouldn't wonder when someone looks male, because that's just a superficial beauty standard, women can all look differently [latter part is of course correct].

The conclusion they draw is that it affects all women who look different from the mainstream when other women question their presence in women's spaces.
Thus: "transphobia also affects women who look different because they are being questioned, too". (and the other conclusion is that it's better to welcome TW into women's spaces because whom you suspect to be a TW could be a non-typical woman....).

Completely left out is the important part where women hadn't been so vigilant about neutral looks before, because it was usually obvious that only women are in women's spaces and anyone not looking "typical" (but not clearly male, either) would very likely be a woman, too.

I think that now rather more women who don't look "feminine" are under closer observation by other women because they have more reason to doubt than they used to have before. That means the TRA-arguments have divided women unnecessarily, too, because everyone is more concerned about the negatives than ever.

(Obviously I have no clear definition of "mainstream", "feminine" etc, this is just a general layout of trying to see the structure of the arguments.)

Is there any other source than an article in "Hindustan Times" where IK said others considering IK "trans" would be shameful for IK's family?
I do try to follow the threads but I could have missed that.

Oh it's all ridiculous, I'm not even sure where to start. Overall the aspect that bothers me most is the assumption that it's JKR and Her Fellow Harpies who all think it's makeup and acting feminine that decide whether someone's female (not even woman but female). Er, no, that would be what the TRAs decided. These same people probably got upset seeing JKR out at lunches with feminists who had short hair and didn't wear makeup because they 'looked like men.'

re: the screenshot; I noticed that the argument goes in circles, seeing both statements posted regularly, with varying persons as examples, at the moment then it's IK.

"transphobia affects all women"
and
"trans has nothing to do with you"

The argument in the screenshot is a strawman logic anyways. I saw a couple of these floating about. No-one from the GC group says IK is not "feminine" enough to "too muscly" and that's why people became suspicious; the arguments and questions are about something completely different.

(fully understanding that the debate is not about trans anyways)

We’ve still got a hill to climb it seems.

Stirring stuff.

Terfy friend sent me the following image she's seen reposted by some of our mutuals. 🙄

The AP ran the following story: "Trump again decries two gold medalist Olympic athletes, falsely labeling the female boxers as men"

To judge by Khelif's Instagram - this is someone who likes dressing like a man. Fine. Weird this should change now though ...

you’re naming mine as well

I've posted before about Khelif's move from Lightweight, 60kg to Welterweight, 66kg, and how I believe that a male putting on 6kg is different from a female putting on 6kg - it's likely to be 6kg of muscle on a male body. I was just guessing that from photos of Khelif in Tokyo and in Paris - not bigger but obviously more powerful, as he won most of his later fights by unanimous decision.

One of the few women to beat Khelif was Amy Broadhurst, and I've just found this interview with her which confirms my suspicions:

To the uninitiated, 6kg may not seem like much. But in boxing, it makes it a different sport. Competing so far outside her natural weight-class had unforeseen effects on the 27-year-old inside and outside the ring.
“This time last year I was at the Commonwealth at 60kg. All of a sudden I have no other choice but to shift up to 66kg which is 12 pounds. I go from looking at myself in the mirror at 60kg being toned and having a six-pack to then going up to 66kg and not being in the shape that I was in."
Exclusive: Amy Broadhurst on weight issues, a mixed season and her goals for 2024 - Irish Mirror Online

Maybe if Amy had been through male puberty the 6kg would have gone on as muscle and not fat🙄

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1euoia7/imane_khelifs_homecoming_parade_after_winning/

I think it might be because the retouching is so heavy handed it’s pushed Imane off a cliff and down into The Uncanny Valley?

I'm just glad it's happened. Bought it to the attention of Joe Public. Men competing is women's sports is so wrong. How anyone can argue this is ok, is baffling

Is it just me or do those new photos of IK in makeup look really creepy?

I'm not sure if this is about the photos themselves, or my reaction to such obvious propaganda.

I agree Puffy no athlete, female, male, sex correctly or erroneously observed at birth should have to get gussied up for a PR campaign.

No one should care if IK wears mascara on a day off training or not (especially not in an era where loads of the make up artists and influencers are men).

The crap photoshop job did make me laugh tho - I love Pierre et Gilles but their art is meant to look so overdone that it’s no longer a photo (and their earlier pieces were literally paint on top of a base photo) whereas IK’s photo shoot is meant to convince skeptics of the true&honest femininity that hides behind the public-facing combat sports persona!

Interesting analysis in this thread about the matches Khelif lost, and why this still supports the hypothesis that Khelif is male: https://old.reddit.com/r/ImaneKhelif/comments/1eu3sw5/imanes_coach_seemingly_confirms_she_has_dsd/lik8ts8

it's really shameful that they're making poor old IK mug up like that. exactly the same thing was tried with Caster Semenya after her first big Olympic win, the new image lasted for exactly the duration of that photoshoot because, yknow, Caster is a man and like many/most men prefers manly things.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2009/09/caster_you_mag.jpg

And the Trojan horse inside that Trojan horse is... male supremacy. That's why it doesn't matter that this "isn't a trans issue."

Yes, both very lovely too! Bret is just a bit prettier in my opinion. And I’m not even a fan of metal!

Marie - true, I see little support for female bodybuilders (outside of bodybuilding circles) just right on bros moaning how they look too muscly (ie more muscular than they are).

I wonder how many men leaping in with these “western standards of beauty” comments ever said a peep about The Williams sisters or other athletes?

Behind every good man there's a great makeup artist

Dial I’ll see your Brett Michaels and raise you a CC Deville AND a Sebastian Bach!

😉

(And now I will stop derailing with my teenage hair metal crushes)

That girly-girly photo of IK is annoying in so many ways. I've just thought of another way: some of the defenders of Khelif-as-woman have scolded us for deciding what a woman 'should' look like, women are different, some women are muscular, you're being sexist/racist/looks-ist etc.

But instead of doubling down on 'Imane is a girl but a tough strong sporting fit highly-trained girl who likes wearing sports gear, and what's wrong with that?'
we get this 'in fact she loves makeup and flicking her hair back and all that 'trimmin' where women are women, high silk hose and peek-a-boo clothes'.

The new message is that -guess what - it's not all right to be a big tough woman like Imane after all. Trouble is, Imane, pre-Olympics, clearly never got the memo, and never appeared otherwise.

Exactly. Bret Michaels was beautiful back then. But very much a man.