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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Imane Khelif

805 replies

LHayday · 14/08/2024 20:07

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

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spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:25

"There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare? "

What exactly do you think are the major issues with the two separate accredited labs that undertook the tests?

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:23

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 09:21

'renowned'.

Renowned for what? Having a qualification in a certain area and being willing to take payment to go on record and declare someone is a woman.

When the criteria for 'being a woman' in this situation is laid out by IOC as having an F in your passport. Not being female.

This is a fairly typical example of propaganda to try and add legitimacy to something that's problematic by giving it some sort of professional backing.

We know that there are huge problems within the field of endocrinology with a large number willing to take money to play with hormones despite a lack of robust evidence to say it's a good idea. There are plenty of endocrinologists willing to say that someone who was born a man is a woman.

In this case we have someone on record saying despite their chromosomes and testosterone levels they are a woman, not not female. Language matters here. And they've been paid to do this.

In terms of them being a) a reliable impartial witness b) saying something of scientific value we have neither.

The first thing you learnt when studying history or media is to consider the bias of the source before what they say. Then you examine what they say and what their intentions is. Then you look for other sources of information to see if they match or say something different. Then you assess what is said in terms of its value and reliability. What you don't do is go "oh well they are an important person, so I will take what they say at face value and not apply any critical analysis to it". Because that's dumb.

We have a number of sources, including ones with bias towards to individual, who all say this is an XY individual with raised testosterone levels outside the female range.

And the problem with that in sporting terms is that anyone with raised testosterone levels outside the female range, who has XY chromosomes is likely to have gone through male puberty and have both an unfair advantage and pose a physical safety risk to females in a high risk contact sport like boxing.

Which is the entire argument about why we don't want males in female sport and why female sport was created in the first place.

Just because you declare someone a woman based on your paperwork definition doesn't mean that they are female or a woman based on actually being a women.

I do wonder about people who just blindly follow 'expert says' without actually thinking about what the expert says or why the expert is saying it and whether they really are a reliable expert or just someone on the payroll.

Corruption is a huge social issue. We have surprisingly little discussion of it compared to the scale of the problem.

There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare?

Why the bias in your approach?

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 10:19

Datun · 15/08/2024 00:57

One wonders what language the harassment he received was in, given he can't read English

TBF I read a lot of foreign language twitter because the translate feature makes it possible for me to do so.

This might also be a workable fudge if the French courts decide to be difficult. Twitter could just disable translation into French.

KohlaParasaurus · 15/08/2024 10:09

ChaChaChooey · 15/08/2024 10:00

Bit weird that someone would post on the Feminism board to tell women off for objecting to live televised male violence but I suppose it takes all sorts, eh?

An acquaintance of mine has a teenage son who, she say, engages in recreational trolling on Mumsnet. Judging by how amusing she seems to find it, I'm sure there's a lot of it about. Not, of course, that I'm saying this is the case on this particular thread, heaven forfend!

WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 10:09

Chersfrozenface · 15/08/2024 09:59

Does one not have a multiligual expert in hurty words in one's entourage?

An entourage without a multilingual expert in hurty words isn't worthy of being called an entourage.

Catsmere · 15/08/2024 10:06

Handmaidens (assuming this poster is a woman). All this eagerness to defend Poor Imane is only shown to men, who the defenders know full well is a man.

ChaChaChooey · 15/08/2024 10:00

Bit weird that someone would post on the Feminism board to tell women off for objecting to live televised male violence but I suppose it takes all sorts, eh?

Chersfrozenface · 15/08/2024 09:59

WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 09:53

It might have been the universal language of Hurtywordish.

Does one not have a multiligual expert in hurty words in one's entourage?

Catsmere · 15/08/2024 09:59

WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 09:53

It might have been the universal language of Hurtywordish.

🤣🤣🤣

WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 09:53

Datun · 15/08/2024 00:57

One wonders what language the harassment he received was in, given he can't read English

It might have been the universal language of Hurtywordish.

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 09:44

Ouch, Red! On A-level results day and all!

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 09:28

'renowned expert' does not pass the GCSE level of scrutiny never mind the world class level of scrutiny needed for this debate.

I would like to reach A Level scrutiny on MN at some point but unfortunately I fear that we don't have that quality candidate.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 09:21

'renowned'.

Renowned for what? Having a qualification in a certain area and being willing to take payment to go on record and declare someone is a woman.

When the criteria for 'being a woman' in this situation is laid out by IOC as having an F in your passport. Not being female.

This is a fairly typical example of propaganda to try and add legitimacy to something that's problematic by giving it some sort of professional backing.

We know that there are huge problems within the field of endocrinology with a large number willing to take money to play with hormones despite a lack of robust evidence to say it's a good idea. There are plenty of endocrinologists willing to say that someone who was born a man is a woman.

In this case we have someone on record saying despite their chromosomes and testosterone levels they are a woman, not not female. Language matters here. And they've been paid to do this.

In terms of them being a) a reliable impartial witness b) saying something of scientific value we have neither.

The first thing you learnt when studying history or media is to consider the bias of the source before what they say. Then you examine what they say and what their intentions is. Then you look for other sources of information to see if they match or say something different. Then you assess what is said in terms of its value and reliability. What you don't do is go "oh well they are an important person, so I will take what they say at face value and not apply any critical analysis to it". Because that's dumb.

We have a number of sources, including ones with bias towards to individual, who all say this is an XY individual with raised testosterone levels outside the female range.

And the problem with that in sporting terms is that anyone with raised testosterone levels outside the female range, who has XY chromosomes is likely to have gone through male puberty and have both an unfair advantage and pose a physical safety risk to females in a high risk contact sport like boxing.

Which is the entire argument about why we don't want males in female sport and why female sport was created in the first place.

Just because you declare someone a woman based on your paperwork definition doesn't mean that they are female or a woman based on actually being a women.

I do wonder about people who just blindly follow 'expert says' without actually thinking about what the expert says or why the expert is saying it and whether they really are a reliable expert or just someone on the payroll.

Corruption is a huge social issue. We have surprisingly little discussion of it compared to the scale of the problem.

WickedSerious · 15/08/2024 09:17

Catsmere · 14/08/2024 23:55

Especially since he apparently doesn't read English, according to claims about why he signed the tests showing he's male.

Gosh,what a pickle he's got himself into.

misscockerspaniel · 15/08/2024 08:03

VoodooQualities · 14/08/2024 20:26

I may be premature but I'm going to call it anyway.

This looks very much like a drive-by scolding.

... by a posse wearing size 13 stilettos

borntobequiet · 15/08/2024 07:57

suggestionsplease1 · 14/08/2024 23:38

This is a quote from that interview:

"After the 2023 Championship, when she was disqualified, I took the initiative and contacted a renowned endocrinologist at the University Hospital Kremlin-Bicêtre in Paris, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane was indeed a woman, despite of her karyotype and her testosterone levels. "

Meaning, he looked at her passport. Regardless of the medical evidence.

Catsmere · 15/08/2024 02:09

Anything to keep his name in the news and push his victim credentials.

I bet this "harassment" doesn't include anything like the death and rape threats JKR receives, given she's a woman (who stands up for women, what's more) and he isn't.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2024 02:00

One wonders why Khelif might be complaining about Elon Musk and JKR and not the IBA who started it all.

Catsmere · 15/08/2024 01:05

Datun · 15/08/2024 00:57

One wonders what language the harassment he received was in, given he can't read English

Or if indeed he received any.

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 01:00

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 00:57

AND the fact that NEITHER boxer disputed the disqualification or went to an appeal.
Why?

Well, don’t forget the appeal was active at first, I would predict until after the visit to the Paris endocrinologist.

They took Khelif to the endocrinologist to confirm the IBA results it seems. Which was wise if they hadn’t checked this before.

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 00:57

AND the fact that NEITHER boxer disputed the disqualification or went to an appeal.
Why?

annejumps · 15/08/2024 00:57

RainWithSunnySpells · 15/08/2024 00:52

I suspect that too anne.

I've said it before, but as soon as this became a story I saw a ton of posts on Facebook (even from people I didn't follow) insisting that these were XY athletes who were women. Now, it's XY DSDs. Previously, it was trans women, and "female athletes with high testosterone." They're testing the boundaries.

Datun · 15/08/2024 00:57

Catsmere · 14/08/2024 23:55

Especially since he apparently doesn't read English, according to claims about why he signed the tests showing he's male.

One wonders what language the harassment he received was in, given he can't read English

RainWithSunnySpells · 15/08/2024 00:52

I suspect that too anne.

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 00:52

And again,

We have two tests from independent labs in different countries, and the results have been suppressed by the athletes. We have a Gynecologist making a statement that the boxers both have XY chromosomes and pubertal advantage.

We have an endocrinologist stating that ‘despite‘ karyotype and testosterone levels, Khelif is a ‘woman’. Female is not used here.

We also have an Algerian doctor who has been monitoring testosterone suppression.

And female athletes don’t have any requirements to suppress testosterone. Only male athletes do this.

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