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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Imane Khelif

805 replies

LHayday · 14/08/2024 20:07

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

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spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:20

I believe the first tests showed XY chromosomes and presume that second tests also checked for the sry gene. XY results with no check of SRY could have meant CAIS

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:19

At Monday's media event Roberts said Khelif and Lin were first tested at the 2022 World Championships in Istanbul, Turkey but no action was taken as the results were "inconclusive".

So not female then.

"Inconclusive" would cover an initial XY chromosome screening without information about which specific DSD.

46XY would be "inconclusive" under World Athletics rules, until they figured out if it was 5-ARD or PAIS etc - or just normal male (ineligible), or CAIS/Swyers etc (eligible).

I don't know if IBA is applying the same rules as athletics, but it would make sense.

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:16

Part of the issue here (and potential corruption angle) is that the IBA hasn't been doing consistent sex testing for everyone, and that they didn't have rules in place until very recently. It seems that these two were targetted after issues raised by other competititors.

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2024 13:16

@LHayday . I’d say the women he was pitted against would have been desperate for him to be a woman. Desperate to have fair and safe competition. Instead the IOC seems to have had the women as sport for male participants and spectators. There is a reason sports (and certainly combat sports) are separated by sex and sometimes by weight. Even if the participants wear earrings, necklaces or make-up.

Someone once said ‘it’s the economy, stupid’. To paraphrase; ‘It’s the biology, stupid’. I’m not calling anyone stupid, just using the phrase. Although as being gullible to this anti-science movement, many people have surprisingly become rather stupid. Men who you discover don’t understand rights, or women’s rights due to struggles because of our sex class. I’d say many of these bros are pretending as they won’t be the ‘game’. Maybe they find it amusing, or ‘exciting’ to see women treated so badly. Certainly women who cheerlead the entitlement of men to abuse and discriminate against women strike me as such. But I don’t think women are lesser or our sex class should be abused, insulted or injured and generally discriminated against.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:16

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:15

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

I believe you just made that up. Citation please.

Or is this cunning misleading phrasing? You said "tests" - so you don't mean "sex tests", so they would have been drug tests, say?

At Monday's media event Roberts said Khelif and Lin were first tested at the 2022 World Championships in Istanbul, Turkey but no action was taken as the results were "inconclusive".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

A picture of Imane Khelif at Paris 2024

Boxer gender eligibility: Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting row explained

As a row over eligibility continues to overshadow boxing at the Olympics, we take a detailed look at the background to the dispute.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:16

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:13

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

Where's the replicability and what's happening there then?

They didn't get the results from the first test until after the tournament ended and then had to wait until the boxers were registered for another tournament before they could retest

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:15

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

I believe you just made that up. Citation please.

Or is this cunning misleading phrasing? You said "tests" - so you don't mean "sex tests", so they would have been drug tests, say?

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:13

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:08

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short.

So you think the cunning plan was to send tampered-with or fake samples for sex testing, to disqualify competitors on the grounds of sex?

A test which can clearly be repeated at any time to both correct the earlier result, and both prove that tampering must have taken place? Thus discrediting the IBA further?

You do know sex is immutable, right? Anyone wanting to arrange a fake result would want to do it in something mutable that can't be easily repeated and hence disproven, like checking drugs in a person's system.

But you know previous tests were carried out by the IBA on these athletes right? And they did not give rise to results that disqualified them from competing.

Where's the replicability and what's happening there then?

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:13

Using your accountancy example it would be akin to saying that you can't trust an accredited accountant to certify a document as a true copy because they are accredited only as accountants and not as document checkers

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:10

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:05

O yes actually, I have found an issue:

"The IBA said the tests were sent to two different laboratories that are accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

However, Wada has told BBC Sport it does not oversee gender tests and its work only relates to anti-doping matters."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

But those labs are accredited for doping tests by wada. Since the sporting bodies aren't sex testing anymore it would make sense that no labs would be specifically accredited for sex testing.
Why would wada accredited labs risk losing that accreditation and losing an income stream for dope testing by faking sex tests

NecessaryScene · 15/08/2024 13:08

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short.

So you think the cunning plan was to send tampered-with or fake samples for sex testing, to disqualify competitors on the grounds of sex?

A test which can clearly be repeated at any time to both correct the earlier result, and both prove that tampering must have taken place? Thus discrediting the IBA further?

You do know sex is immutable, right? Anyone wanting to arrange a fake result would want to do it in something mutable that can't be easily repeated and hence disproven, like checking drugs in a person's system.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 13:05

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:00

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short. There is enough suspicion over the workings of the IBA to give considerable pause for thought.

Can you name a single issue with the endocrinologist?

Do you mean the unnamed endocrinologist hired by Khelif's team?

  1. Not independent
  2. Qualifications unknown
  3. Experience of DSDs unknown
  4. Whether the use of woman by the endocrinologist refers to gender or sex
  5. Report and results not seen by any independent body

Is that enough?

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:05

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

O yes actually, I have found an issue:

"The IBA said the tests were sent to two different laboratories that are accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada).

However, Wada has told BBC Sport it does not oversee gender tests and its work only relates to anti-doping matters."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

A picture of Imane Khelif at Paris 2024

Boxer gender eligibility: Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting row explained

As a row over eligibility continues to overshadow boxing at the Olympics, we take a detailed look at the background to the dispute.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 13:00

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

If a lab is provided with suspect material their best efforts will fall short. There is enough suspicion over the workings of the IBA to give considerable pause for thought.

Can you name a single issue with the endocrinologist?

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:55

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:53

We simply don't know what exactly happened. We don't have access to the full protocols.

It seems that the IBA only made provision for the sort of arbitrary and targeted tests they carried out in protocols that were dated after the time they initially did the tests. So no wonder their protocol rigour and the validity of findings is being challenged.

Their own leading figures can't even their stories straight in interviews about whether chromosomes or testosterone were tested.

There's a fair history of shady workings, it's not surprising that people are questioning.

So you can't name a single issue with the two accredited labs

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:53

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:47

That accredited accountant wouldn't actually give any opinion on their clients accounts though unless they were conducting an audit. If it was an audit then they would not be doing their job if they weren't checking that information wasn't dodgy.
Are you implying that the IBA sent fake or contaminated samples to both labs

We simply don't know what exactly happened. We don't have access to the full protocols.

It seems that the IBA only made provision for the sort of arbitrary and targeted tests they carried out in protocols that were dated after the time they initially did the tests. So no wonder their protocol rigour and the validity of findings is being challenged.

Their own leading figures can't even their stories straight in interviews about whether chromosomes or testosterone were tested.

There's a fair history of shady workings, it's not surprising that people are questioning.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:47

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:41

Well for eg.

You could have an accredited accountancy firm looking over the books for their client. If their client is dodgy and providing them with dodgy information unknown to them, the fact they are accredited, well-thought of etc is unfortunately irrelevant. They could do the best job in the world but their accuracy is stymied by their client.

That accredited accountant wouldn't actually give any opinion on their clients accounts though unless they were conducting an audit. If it was an audit then they would not be doing their job if they weren't checking that information wasn't dodgy.
Are you implying that the IBA sent fake or contaminated samples to both labs

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:41

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:35

The greek doctor confirmed they were chromosome tests and numerous people have seen the test results but I wasn't asking what you thought about the IBA. I asked what the issues were with the accredited labs that did the testing

Well for eg.

You could have an accredited accountancy firm looking over the books for their client. If their client is dodgy and providing them with dodgy information unknown to them, the fact they are accredited, well-thought of etc is unfortunately irrelevant. They could do the best job in the world but their accuracy is stymied by their client.

viques · 15/08/2024 12:40

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 00:57

AND the fact that NEITHER boxer disputed the disqualification or went to an appeal.
Why?

Because on appeal all the results, and the tests used, are made public by the independent arbitration panel . This is what scuppered Semanya. The tests identified his DSD and proved categorically that he is a man, not a genetic woman with unusually high levels of testosterone which had always been the claim.

It is far easier to fudge the issue by repeatedly saying that the original tests were unclear, were inadequate, were biased, were performed by a discredited organisation etc etc when you know that the organisation who performed the tests has no legal comeback to those accusations. Going forward with an appeal - which let’s face it is what most people would have insisted on if they knew that they had been wrongly sexed - would expose the lies and cheating.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 12:37

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:23

There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare?

Why the bias in your approach?

Yes there are. However there is a certain amount of overlap and agreement with what the IBA AND Khelif's coaches are BOTH saying.

And thats what you look for when assessing information, its reliability and bias.

I really don't have to lay anything bare.

You'd understand that if you understood the concept of eliminating bias and assessing evidence at a basic level.

Try harder. Think critically.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:35

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 12:33

Ok then, what about the................... WORDS OF THIS OWN PERSON'S COACH?
Who has said there is a "chromosome problem"?

Are you going to come up with something to discredit that too?

Or say that he meant something else entirely? When he said that Imane was upset because "she might not really be a girl"?

The rush to defend this situation is incomprehensible in the face of all the evidence.

We've gone over this; a karyotype difference does not inherently mean an individual has XY chromosomes, or is male.

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:35

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:29

Surely you must have read the reports about the IBA, allegations about corruption, the arbitrary and targeted nature of testing the carried out, the fact that their own senior figures in an interview can't even agree whether the alleged tests looked at chromosomes or testosterone levels 🤷‍♂️

The greek doctor confirmed they were chromosome tests and numerous people have seen the test results but I wasn't asking what you thought about the IBA. I asked what the issues were with the accredited labs that did the testing

HootyMcBooby · 15/08/2024 12:33

Ok then, what about the................... WORDS OF THIS OWN PERSON'S COACH?
Who has said there is a "chromosome problem"?

Are you going to come up with something to discredit that too?

Or say that he meant something else entirely? When he said that Imane was upset because "she might not really be a girl"?

The rush to defend this situation is incomprehensible in the face of all the evidence.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2024 12:29

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:25

"There are major issues with the provenance of the IBA information. Why are you not scrutinising that and laying that bare? "

What exactly do you think are the major issues with the two separate accredited labs that undertook the tests?

Surely you must have read the reports about the IBA, allegations about corruption, the arbitrary and targeted nature of testing the carried out, the fact that their own senior figures in an interview can't even agree whether the alleged tests looked at chromosomes or testosterone levels 🤷‍♂️

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 15/08/2024 12:29

Aussieland · 14/08/2024 20:44

You lot are horrible bullies and should be ashamed of yourselves. I am truly disgusted

Right back at ya. You simper over the feelings of a male, IOC sponsored cheat, while standing back and remaining silent while women (the female type!) get battered in unfair competition.

SHAME. ON. YOU!