Imane Khelif

Khelif's OWN COACH has said there is a "chromosome problem".

WHAT do you think this means? If they had normal XX females chromosomes there wouldn't be a problem, would there?
Therefore, they have abnormal chromosomes.

Therefore, a DSD in other words.
It's not fucking rocket science.

Caster semenya knew they were male, but insisted on running in the women's category, depriving women of money, status and medals. It's not caster who was treated abysmally.

Do you think you can drag your eyes off the men just for one second?

We cannot expect Imane's team to be openly honest about Imane's being XY with or without a DSD, or male, or a man, because the ground they've staked is that Imane is a woman and therefore was OK to compete against women. At the same time, they haven't and aren't going to claim that Imane is XX, a typical woman, because the results don't say that (if they did, we can assume they'd be released), the results can be proved (my understanding is that the IBA didn't actually release the results because they legally cannot), and it's visually fairly evident that Imane is not a typical XX woman. Instead, we're seeing this hedging about chromosome problems, "despite" karoytypes, not a trans issue, etc., and the "was raised as a woman, believes herself to be a woman," etc. assertions, and the makeover with the heavy makeup and whatnot. (Side note, I haven't seen much or anything like that about Lin, at least not so strongly asserted.) Many people who believe Imane to be a woman have accepted the explanation that Imane is an XY female/woman, because of reasons, and it seems that this is what IK's team is betting on. The team has no reason to willingly release the results unless and until there's a court case like Semenya's where it's revealed that IK is XY 5ARD. In the meantime, the medals have still been won and Semenya still asserts that internal testicles [sic] don't make Semenya less of a woman. I think IK's team is using Semenya as somewhat of a model except I don't think Semenya ever had a GlamourShots session for a beauty company.

If you know this is a DSD case, what are you actually arguing about? Is your position that even though IK is a male they should be allowed to fight in women’s boxing? Because they apparently “lived as a woman”?

the significant body of evidence that IK is male is references repeatedly in this thread. I’m not going to repeat it because you can’t read the thread.

How was Caster treated abysmally? Actually being told what issue he has his surely better than being treated like a fool?
What about the women who lost out when he beat them?

But in this case, nobody's "believing what some random said on the internet" are they? There's pretty good reason to believe that Khelif is male, from the evidence presented thus far including that he withdrew his challenge to the IBA, the comments of various parties who have been involved with Khelif, along with our knowledge of DSDs.

Why are you so desperate to downplay this? Nobody has been "ripped apart without any facts". At all. What a ridiculous claim to make.

I don't think fairness is high on your list of concerns at all. Some of us see your multiple posts telling us nasty wimms off as highly disingenuous.

Lol, what???

Now I know you're just a troll.

By who? The IOC, world athletics or women who complained?

is your position that “facts” and “evidence” are synonymous?

And that a statement by the IOC is “conjecture”?

I know you likely belong to the group of people that think words mean whatever you say they do, but you might find putting your case across easier if you took your own advice and used words that you actually understood

Hilarious 🤣

No but I do believe Caster was treated utterly abysmally.

@JusteanBiscuits do you still believe that Caster Semanya is female?

Here's what was reported to have been seen by US sports journalist Alan Abrahamson regarding the test results claimed by the IBA. So this appears to have been what's been leaked.

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

That's not "conjecture". You can choose not to believe this (well-respected sports) journalist's claim of what they've seen, I guess, but it isn't conjecture. Do you have evidence that this journalist is an unreliable source?

The translated interview with the trainer does indeed mention karyotype, so again, not "conjecture" or invented. He says that Khelif is a woman, claiming the endocrinologist said this "despite her karyotype and testosterone levels". So yes, he did say Khelif had a male karyotype. Claiming he didn't is false.

Its very inconvenient for people to accept that GC concerns are related to men in women's spaces and its nothing to do with whether those men identify as trans or not.

Some of us are keen that someone isn't ripped apart without any facts. That they wait until the actual facts are known. That is very far from the same as being desperate for them to be female.

This country is literally burning because people no longer wait for facts. They just believe everything some random on the internet says.

Yes I think we all know that.

What else is involved in these 'reams'?

One of my kids has acquired chimerism.

But it has fuck all to do with sex testing for sports categories.

I will try to stick to words of one syllable.

All your "evidence" adding together is all conjecture. You don't know. I don't know. A corrected statement is, again, conjecture.

As you are a legal expert in this area, you really should have a better understanding of fact vs opinion.

Why are some people so keen for this person to be female?

We do. That you choose to ignore the evidence is on you

Its clear that you are unable to understand what I am saying.

That as things stand it is ALL conjecture. There have been no test results released. We do not know what tests were undertaken. We don't know her karyotype status.

We. Don't. Know.

you must know your position is shit when you have to selectively quote.

as my statement makes clear - if you can read more than 10 words at a time - there is a lot of evidence which is made up from multiple sources.

one very significant piece of evidence is the statement by the IOC which was very quickly withdrawn, stating “this is not a DSD case”. It was quickly withdrawn and replaced with the statement “this is not a transgender case”.

as a lawyer who spends many hours every week advising on the legalities of appropriate external messaging I will guarantee you that - unless the IOC have the worlds most incompetent legal advisors - this means it absolutely is a DSD case

The ONLY, literally the ONLY time someone's chromosomes, presence or absence of functional sry gene and testosterone response is of any relevance to the public (and even then, shocking that it should get to the point where it's in the public eye- should be properly dealt with in private for the dignity of the athlete), is when someone with male advantage attempts to participate in a sporting category reserved for females.

At that point, the onus should be on the athlete to demonstrate that they qualify for the category. This isn't hard - can you tell me about another sporting category where we say "oh go on then"?

The acceptance of a passport marker as eligibility was an explicit statement that the IOC were absolutely cool about unfair competition because:

a) Many, many countries in the world now allow this marker to be changed so it means precisely nothing about sex
b) People with DSDs that would disqualify them from entry to female competition based on their sex are likely to have had the wrong marker on their birth certificate and hence passport.

The IOC have made an absolute pigs ear of this, brought the organisation into disrepute, exposed two athletes to unbearable scrutiny, potentially cheated six other athletes from getting the Olympic medals they were entitled to.

But hey, NBD, it's just a contact sport where the difference between male and female performance is a safety as well as a fairness issue. No harm in putting inclusion before safety.

Its clear that you are unable to understand the argument out forward by GC people on this board.

Those activists that say that sex is a spectrum and you can't tell who is male and female use people with DSD's as an attempted gotcha. They say that those with DSDs are not male or female but some kind of third intersex category.

Those that understand biology say DSDs are no proof that sex is a spectrum and that everyone is either male or female including those with DSDs.

Those that understand biology recognise that for a small percentage of people with DSDs it may be quite complex to determine their sex. They also state that those tiny number of individuals whose sex is difficult to determine as no bearing on how easy it is to determine the sex of 99.9% of the population who do not have a DSD.

They think we are lying/being mean when we say it’s bloody obvious that Semenya and Khelif are male. But to us, it is!

like another poster I recall there are a number of studies that show that females (including infants) are significantly better at identifying sex than males. As I said up thread our survival is predicated on it.

So if think there is truth in your statement that many men actually can’t tell visually. It doesn’t explain their dismissal of the evidence, but perhaps it genuinely isn’t clear to them.

it would also explain all those hairy oagres with hands like shovels believing they pass.

you could review the reams of evidence from the IOC

Reams? What the hell are you talking about?