Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

This is comprehensive

He has known that he's a man since 2022 at the absolute latest. So that's exactly what he did do.

"No man has to enter the Olympics so they can beat up women in the name of sport"

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women

Really, ok, link to the science that shows the parameters for deciding that.

Since 2022, Khelif has know himself to be a biological man. Both him and the Algerian government have culpability knowing what's on the passport is false and using that to qualify for the Olympics.

No man has to enter the Olympics so they can beat up women in the name of sport. Khelif made the choice to do so.

Nailed it

The coaches are not nice kind equality lovers who praise fairness. They have masses to gain from playing the system. Those coaches new the IOC weakness and got their man through.

"They have an F on their passport, which they know to be a lie"

Did she change her passport to F to make her eligible or has it always shown F?

You feel that having F on your passport with xy chromosomes is a deliberate lie? The government of Algeria disagrees with you

A big part of the issue I think is that all of this got tangled up in trans issues, when this isn't the case. It's stopped sensible discussions around the inclusion of people with DSD in women's contact sports. This isn't discriminatory, it's putting women's safety as paramount, as it should be in boxing. I can respect Imane as a woman if that's what she aligns with as this isn't just feelings as it is for some...but even disregarding the previous alleged tests, anyone with a pair of eyes can see that their body composition simply isn't one that would be achievable for a biological woman. The fact she isn't amazing at boxing used by some isn't relevant to this, as boxing is a set of skills on top of strength and fitness.

We might feel the IOC rules are a joke but they have not been broken here so she is not a cheat.

They have an F on their passport, which they know to be a lie. This is what qualifies them for Olympic competition. So yes, they are cheating.

"However the "cheat" comment can be defended if the individual knows they are male but they choose to enter a female competition."

If we are going to take the position, That sex is black and white i.e xy chromosome = male then surely the issue of cheating or not cheating should also be black and white. We might feel the IOC rules are a joke but they have not been broken here so she is not a cheat.

This boxer believes herself to be a woman, was raised as such and did not benefit from. Male entitlement etc. At some point she realised she had a DSD but (after much soul searching I'd imagine) still sees herself as a woman.

If all of that can be ignored and dismissed as ultimately irrelevant then it's a bit inconsistent to introduce a " spirit of cricket" argument for branding her a cheat.

I think it’s very complex because intersex are not atypically male or female, that’s too simplistic, and in day to day life they can live and identify as they please, as we all can, but when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

It can be done - athletics, swimming, cycling and rugby are doing it. The competition was better for it. It's a political choice. For boxing the IOC chose to expose women to harm and to make the female category mixed sex.

this is the issue that the sporting world, and everyone else. needs to get to grips with. Intersex has existed as long as humans have, likely always competed in sports. Now science allows us to know there is over 40 variations of intersex , but doesn’t say if they are definitely male or female. And as such, neither you or I ger to classify them either.

This is total nonsense. All DSDs are male or female.

I’m not sure of your logic. If the person has a vagina but also testes who gets to decide they are male and not female? Science says the simple presence of a Y chromosome does not make someone a man, just in the majority of cases. But not always.

this is the issue that the sporting world, and everyone else. needs to get to grips with. Intersex has existed as long as humans have, likely always competed in sports. Now science allows us to know there is over 40 variations of intersex , but doesn’t say if they are definitely male or female. And as such, neither you or I ger to classify them either.

so sporting authorities need to decide, what’s the rules for competing for intersex people. It clearly can’t be the simple presence of a Y chromosome alone. Maybe that coupled with testosterone levels, genitalia, puberty, but you get into some very private areas, and how do you know what puberty someone from rural Algeria or china went through

I think it’s very complex because intersex are not atypically male or female, that’s too simplistic, and in day to day life they can live and identify as they please, as we all can, but when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

its also important to note, some intersex people have both a vagina and a uterus, they can procreate, have a baby, but also have a Y chromosome, no one knows what category the boxers fall into , so no one should be saying they are a man and deluded, because 8ts hugely complex and neither athlete has given their private information out.

but they won’t be alone. All over the world intersex athletes will be competing., as they will habe been since time began. These two are not a never seen before phenomenon

It may be that Khelif feels the same way. In that case, can he be called a cheat, if he genuinely believes he's female and entitled to be in the female category?

He failed his first eligibility test in 2022. So yes he can.

Women in Algeria don't have to cover their hair. They also don't have to wear traditionally female clothing. And kids do stuff like sneak out and play football when they should be inside doing their homework all the time, don't they? Why should kids in Algeria be any different?

The coach image - meh. She knows him well and just won a gold medal at the Olympic Games. It isn't a stranger.

I think it's possible that Khelif genuinely believes he's a woman and is therefore rightfully competing in the women's category. If he was brought up as female before finding out later that he was "male" he might simply not have accepted it.

Semenya genuinely seems to believe he's a woman, in spite of his testicles.

"For me I believe if you are a woman, you are a woman," Semenya told the BBC.

"I have realized I want to live my life and fight for what I think and I believe in myself. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman. I am a woman and have a vagina just like any other woman."

www.outkick.com/sports/olympic-champ-says-being-born-with-internal-testicles-doesnt-make-me-less-of-a-woman

That's delusion - or at least, a refusal to believe the standard definition of male and female. He's clearly managed to rationalise the situation in his mind so that he can continue to believe he's a woman and therefore has been unfairly treated by the sporting authorities.

It may be that Khelif feels the same way. In that case, can he be called a cheat, if he genuinely believes he's female and entitled to be in the female category?

Even if that's the case, the people around him would know the truth, and would be egging him on for their own purposes (I mean the trainers and Algerian boxing authorities, not his family, who might also genuinely believe he's female).

I wonder when he was first told that he wasn't female? Might it only have been after the IBA tests?

As to him suing someone, if he's trying to sue people who have issued threats against him (eg death threats), he'll have a case. And he wouldn't need to prove that he's female.

But if he's trying to sue people who are calling him male, then he'll need to prove he's not, and that might not end well for him. That might be the reason he dropped his appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, because all his medical details would become public.

Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5138713-thread-4-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes

This current thread has an interview with a statement by someone who trains the boxer that there's an "issue with chromosomes." And implies has been reducing testosterone.

Still claims they're a woman though, which is abject lying.

The people who make points like “Algeria is a country where people cannot transition,” or point out how conservative it is etc etc…

…somehow don’t have much to say about all the pictures of this guy in male clothing with hair uncovered. Or that he was permitted to play football with other boys. Who knew that Algeria’s become so accepting of (what a conservative country would view as) gender non-conforming behaviour?

And then you have his coach putting him on his shoulders. Even if Khelif is a thoroughly modern Millie, I can’t see his much older male coaches sharing that attitude.

Correction, THREE full threads and the start of a new one.

Thread 3

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5135868-thread-3-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

And no-one should have to provide the public with medical details because there’s a mob howling for it

The IOC are culpable here. They have caused this mess and out Kehlif in a position that never needed to happen.

... when another sports body had deemed her ineligible. THAT was what started this issue ("ahtlete banned by their sport association has been okayed for olympics") and not her looks.

We as women / the public have been through this before: being lied to, silenced and accused of racism, when Semenya dominated the 800m for a few years. Turns out people's suspicions were right but it doesn't matter now. The women who missed out on medals, prizes and professional opportunities will never be compensated.

IK & LY's case is clearer in that they have already been tested by a sports body to establish their sex, whereas the whole Semenya debacle was a huge learning curve for the athletics association.

In terms of the athletes I take your point that no rules have been broken. However the "cheat" comment can be defended if the individual knows they are male but they choose to enter a female competition.

I would welcome these points being dissected in court by brilliant minds - is our shy, pious country girl Imane ready for that? I'm glad she is keeping the discussion alive.

Just because she looks like a man does not mean she’s a man. Do more research.

<points to two and a half full threads on 'the research'>

What's this "harassment" he's claiming anyway? I didn't see anything in the article that suggested it. People stating he's a man is the truth, not harassment.

HE'S A MAN! The truth is not hate.