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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

544 replies

GoogleWhacking · 10/08/2024 22:26

news.sky.com/story/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-at-centre-of-olympic-gender-row-files-legal-complaint-over-online-harassment-13195264

She could have put this to bed by sharing DNA tests. I'm struggling to feel sympathy, although it must be horrid.

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RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:53

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:50

So basically an athlete just needs to identify as a woman, and have female on their passport, which is a disgrace. The IOC are a disgrace.

Yep.

Which is why it then becomes an issue about trans athletes too, if that's your criteria of choice.

Thankfully this doesn't apply to all other sports.

The trouble is the very worst sport for the criteria to be your passport is boxing because the implications to women's safety are huge.

Inlaw · 11/08/2024 11:51

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

I get what you’re saying, But I have to ask the question why the U.K. and other western countries never have this problem. Some might say well we have better healthcare. But I don’t think that stands because you’re right - We don’t have our chromosomes tested at birth here. And it’s 2024. We have nhs doctors from all over the world. This ‘3rd country’ poor healthcare situation may exist but not for those with wealth or means. And I assume being a potential gold winning athlete would constitute those means.

We can’t say they didn’t know. They did because they were disqualified last year.

Which to me leaves the question do some countries have a value set that is morally questionable? Because if this was my child I would be saying I am sorry this is very unfortunate. But it’s not right to compete in the women’s.

Can they compete in the men’s? Or is that too dangerous for them or are they simple uncompetitive in the men’s . If it is too dangerous then why is the same principle not afforded to women. It is a question of values and morals.

And if it is only a question of not being competitive in the men’s. Then I am sorry but tough. The women’s category is the women’s category. Not the ‘not competitive in the men’s category’.

Catsmere · 11/08/2024 11:51

Iwasafool · 11/08/2024 09:53

How would you feel if you have been brought up as female, always thought you were female, didn't have male genitalia and someone did a test (no one seems to have said what the test was and what it showed) and told you that you were male. Would you suddenly think Oh yes I'm a man or would you still think you were a woman.

I don't care about his alleged sads at being proven to be a man.

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:50

So basically an athlete just needs to identify as a woman, and have female on their passport, which is a disgrace. The IOC are a disgrace.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:49

oakleaffy · 11/08/2024 11:44

That seems grossly unfair.
A tainted 'win' if Khelif is proven to have had male advantage.

Caster Semenya still is an Olympic Gold Medal Winner.

Yes it's grossly unfair to Lynsey Sharp, Melissa Bishop and Joanna Jozwik.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 11:46

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

Why should people recognise a male athlete's achievements above the female opponents who do not have the male advantage that the male athlete has?

Why should people celebrate a male athlete using that advantage, knowing that they have it, to punch female people in the face, to put female athletes at higher risk of permanent and life changing damage, to take the opportunities that those exceptional women should have won?

Is it because there is an emotional back story?

What about the stories of each and every female athlete that these male athletes have displaced, or injured? Do they not count? Where is the 'empathy and kindness' towards them? Where have either of these two male boxers had any empathy and kindness for the female boxers they have harmed, all while knowing that they are male?

And whether they have chosen to remain ignorant about their own health issues, or have simply not understood, why is it up to female boxers to cope with the outcomes of that ignorance?

I think it is a misogynistic viewpoint that centres these male athletes under the guise that they are 'women', all because some people choose to ignore the IBA tests for their own political purposes.

Mainoo72 · 11/08/2024 11:45

It’s not bullying if the person is a MAN.

EsmaCannonball · 11/08/2024 11:45

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:40

But surely its against the rules to knowingly falsely claim to be female?

Not when the IOC's criterion for female boxers is merely to have 'female' on their passport. No rules broken. Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua could have entered if they went through the motions of changing their legal gender in the UK.

oakleaffy · 11/08/2024 11:44

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:26

No because they were within the rules at the time they won. It would be deemed unfair to strip retrospectively (despite it being unfair to all the women that they were allowed to compete in the first place).

That seems grossly unfair.
A tainted 'win' if Khelif is proven to have had male advantage.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:43

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:40

But surely its against the rules to knowingly falsely claim to be female?

What has been falsified? Who falsified it? The midwife? Who acted in bad faith?

There's no legal duty to change it, upon discovering it was inaccurate.

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:40

EsmaCannonball · 11/08/2024 11:37

The problem is Khelif hasn't broken any IOC rules. Ultimately the rules are the main problem.

But surely its against the rules to knowingly falsely claim to be female?

CautiousLurker · 11/08/2024 11:38

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

I pretty much had my XX chromosomal status confirmed at about 9 when my menses began and breast buds developed. If they hadn’t, as was the case with a friend’s niece who was anorexic and nothing had happened by 14, then I would have expected my parents and GP to insist upon a full raft of tests, which would naturally have included karyotype/sex tests.

It beggars belief that in either Tawain or Algeria that this was not done. And if, for some inexplicable reason it wasn’t, then they had an inkling in 2022 and confirmation in 2023 when they were banned.

EsmaCannonball · 11/08/2024 11:37

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:36

Surely the medals could be taken back though if it was proved that Khelif is male and knows it, but put F on their passport anyway in order to compete?

The problem is Khelif hasn't broken any IOC rules. Ultimately the rules are the main problem.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 11/08/2024 11:36

#BeKind
#Nooneknowstheirchromosomes

Deadringer · 11/08/2024 11:36

Surely the medals could be taken back though if it was proved that Khelif is male and knows it, but put F on their passport anyway in order to compete?

EsmaCannonball · 11/08/2024 11:36

highame · 11/08/2024 08:15

The coaches are not nice kind equality lovers who praise fairness. They have masses to gain from playing the system. Those coaches new the IOC weakness and got their man through.

The coach of each gold medal winning boxer gets $25 000 prize money. Who knows what kind of betting went on as well?

MrTiddlesTheCat · 11/08/2024 11:36

At what point do people think she “became” a man?

At around week 6 or 7 of gestation.

WickedSerious · 11/08/2024 11:35

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

No thanks,you crack on though.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/08/2024 11:34

Khelif does not live or present as a woman:

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment
RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:33

CautiousLurker · 11/08/2024 11:28

@GoogleWhacking I think he’d struggle to prove bullying and harassment when the interview with his own coach published overnight states categorically that they’ve known all along he is an XY male, however he identifies.

If there have been death threats etc, then these should absolutely be investigated, though I have no idea whose jurisdiction this is. No matter what my feelings about his cheating lying ass status is, or my disgust at the physical harms inflicted up on multiple female competitors by Khelif and Lin, no-one should be threatened.

Personally I’d like to see a class action by all the female competitors in this Olympics against the IOC and then, given the evidence is clear that Lin and Khelif utterly knew that their XY status renders them karyotypically male, the individual boxers for assault and fraud.

Ooo where was that published? In France? Or outside France?

If it's in France, then the publisher would be liable to prosecution too. As well as the coach.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/08/2024 11:31

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

This is all the fault of the IOC along with the Algerian boxing team, who knew the facts of the DSD, but persisted entering Khelif in the women's category.

There is no way that the DSD was not known about years ago......and in spite of the fact that the birth certificate and passport have female sex markers, Khelif really has not 'lived' or 'presented as' a woman since childhood. All the evidence is there.

Let's now turn our attention to the female competitors - who have all trained hard for years in a sport which has traditionally not been seen as suitable for women; who stood no real chance against a genetic male - at the highest level of the women's game.. Empathy for the deep anger and sense of injsutice they must be feeling; plus astonishment that in a contact sport such as boxing, nobody showed any concern for their safety at all.

Snowypeaks · 11/08/2024 11:31

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

You're using "sex" and "identity" interchangeably.
Please don't.

Khelif was male from conception.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 11:31

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

Read.The.Thread.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 11:30

WickedSerious · 11/08/2024 10:31

You're having a laugh aren't you?

That was a remarkable post. It was very clear that the poster is someone who completely lacks empathy for female people while centring a male person.

I have seen this before. It is a feature. Centre a person who directly benefits from a female person being harmed because a poster believes that female people can and should be exploited to provide something that the poster has sympathy for. But never sympathy for the exploited female people. Whether it is women and children for surrogacy or women to provide 'sport' for a male boxer.

And any person who points out that female people are being utilised as resources is vilified. The lack of consideration for those female people comes through clearly though. And that post was fucked up. But hey. ... right side of history, yes?

CautiousLurker · 11/08/2024 11:28

@GoogleWhacking I think he’d struggle to prove bullying and harassment when the interview with his own coach published overnight states categorically that they’ve known all along he is an XY male, however he identifies.

If there have been death threats etc, then these should absolutely be investigated, though I have no idea whose jurisdiction this is. No matter what my feelings about his cheating lying ass status is, or my disgust at the physical harms inflicted up on multiple female competitors by Khelif and Lin, no-one should be threatened.

Personally I’d like to see a class action by all the female competitors in this Olympics against the IOC and then, given the evidence is clear that Lin and Khelif utterly knew that their XY status renders them karyotypically male, the individual boxers for assault and fraud.