What is a woman?

Completely agree. Yet when we have in front of us a woman who is saying she is and has those things we have become a despicable baying mob telling her she is lying, with no plausible evidence of the lie occurring

There is plenty of plausible evidence.

😁

Moot point.

No person in the history of humankind has produced both sperm and ova. The presence of a fully formed and function uterus has been documented in male people, ie. those who have a XY genotype. One could argue though that they are still genotypically male. It did not make their genotype female.

Yes this. A woman is anyone who is, was, will be or would have been able to produce large gamates.

There is Ovotesticular Syndrome and there are recorded cases where individuals were able to have children.

ETA: But it's a mood point, as this is still a disorder and surgery was required to make it happen.

A Snowy say, no recorded cases of full hermaphroditism in humans.

Nice summary but hermaphroditism doesn't exist at all in humans.
A hermaphrodite would be a person who could, with their own sperm, impregnate a woman AND with their own eggs, conceive and gestate a baby.

This is getting so boring and yet the answer is so simple.

Female: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce ova.
Male: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce spermatozoa.

Hermaphrodite: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce both gametes. Does not apply to most cases of DSD and is extremely rare in humans.

Woman: Adult female human
Girl: Juvenile female human
Man: Adult male human
Boy: Juvenile male human

This could all be settled today by Khelif taking another sex test. But Khelif doesn't want to. Why is that?

Khleif was given/announced the wrong sex at birth. Told the wrong thing. But instead of now accepting this, continues to demand to box in sport. Go fight in the men's category. See how you get on in that class.

So both male. IBA says male. Sex is at conception anyway, but only noted/recorded at birth. Which was done wrongly.

Plus this is all another Caster Semenya type issue. But this whole thing, This is tiny, affects a tiny % of the population. Yet it's become a big talking point, and now over the 24 Olympics. DSD or other sex queries. Most of us know what sex we are, because it's simple.

'Gender eligibility' for Khelief. It's not gender eligible, it should be sex eligibility.

"I am a woman". No you're not. That was a mistake, at birth, announcing you as the wrong sex. But you know all this. And still demand to participate, in female boxing. Shame on the Olympic committee.

Do you know who DOESN'T have to assert they are female and lived as a woman?

WOMEN!

You heard it first here guys.

I'd start off with evidence of your own eyes. This is the sort of eveidence that led to the two boxers raising 'suspicions' in the first place - in the minds of the other women's boxing teams - and which led to the IBA conducting two separate tests at verified labs, which were both signed off and not challenged by the boxers themselves.

Khleif is someone who was recorded as female at birth, due to a DSD. This is why the passport still has a female sex marker on it. That is 'her' legal recorded sex. As a small child Khelif was probably socialised as female.

However, you only need follow the narrative of 'her' life' look at the images posted on 'her' own instagram - to see that Khelif clearly went through male puberty. There is no evidence, at all, that Khelif presents and acts as one would expect a Algerian muslim woman to present and act.

I'm a bit confused. I don't know who to believe. The BBC? XY?

Have to say given you say you are pregnant and due to give birth your awareness of your own biology seems peculiarly lacking. Who refers to their ovaries as 'surrounding structures'? A new one on me!

I didn't understand your post because it was illogical and all over the place.......displaying an obvious lack of clarity, along with a lack of acceptance of both the evidence of your own eyes, and the facts of the matter ( no matter how disputed those facts have been)

Sex testing is not controversial. It is simple; has been done before and I suspect will now be done again.

A woman not being 'feminine' enough is not the issue here. The issue is a male person with a DSD - who was recorded female at birth, but who went on to develop as a male, present as a male ,and now, even act as a male. What woman beats her chest aggressively on winning? I've can't recall ever seeing a female athlete do that.

To be fair to you OP the translation of the article is on the other main FWR thread. Here's the relevant bit, with bolding:

After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist from the Parisian University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and her testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman." That's all that mattered to us. We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently within the female norm. Tests clearly show that all her muscular and other qualities have been diminishing since then. Currently, she can be compared on a muscular and biological level to a woman-woman-woman.

🤣🤣🤣

These things are all asserted by Khelif and her family and community

Other things are asserted by other people. It's called evidence. You think Khelif and his supporters' account should be compelling. I think the evidence of the IBA tests are more so. A respected journalist has seen them. The IOC had to correct a public claim they made that DSDs weren't involved. Why is that? Because clearly they are. They lied about not having seen the tests at first.

You are clutching at straws here, and getting angry because it's not particularly convincing anyone. There are plenty of places online where you can clap along with people who want to destroy women's sport. But a poll here shows that 81% of Mumsnetters disagree with you on the biological sex of these two boxers.

Quintessence keyboard warrior

Thanks. Your arguments are Reddit-level convincing.

No I a) couldn't access the article and b) wouldn't understand it if I could and c) found the coach's interview on youtube, there is no mention of DSD

That's a different coach. Also a translation has been provided for you of the interview. He's entirely on Khelif's side, he's just more honest.

I think you're just being wilfully blind here now and refusing to accept any of the evidence.

I see.

So what you are saying is that a woman is anyone who wants to be called a woman.

Ok. Understood. You want to give male people the right to use the words that women need to describe themselves.

You want to say that is a woman in the ring punching another woman’s face, knowing that it is a male person punching a female athletes face.

Do you say this understanding that your logic has been used to collectively cause harm to women and girls? That allowing male people to call themselves women has directly caused this mess, starting from 25 years ago the IOC dropping sex tests to allow these ‘women’ to compete. Because in 1999, a campaign group convinced the IOC that it was distressing for that group of male people to be discovered to not be women when they very much wanted to be?

However, sex matters. Bodies compete in sport not emotions.

By all means, admonish those who are trying to protect female sports if it makes you feel good. It is all the same arguments and name calling as the OP has done that we have been through before. And each event such as this brings more people to understand your personal premise is entirely built on a philosophical belief that no one else has to believe or comply with.

So do admonish away. It must be hard to accept that others don’t feel the need to comply to male people’s desires to be called women, but you seem to need to.