What is a woman?

😂

He didn't mean it when he mentioned the grease fire!

My favourite McKinnon/Ivy tale is when he raced in Manchester and one puzzled older person wanted to know what the 'lardy lad' was doing racing with the women.

I have literally been told, whilst pregnant, by a MTF trans member of my family that that she has more of an experience of being a woman because a trans woman has it much harder than a cis woman. When my argument was 'I am a woman because of my being pregnant and experiencing life as a biological woman'. Which is where that comes from. It's not that 'bizarre' an opinion to have.

I'd say 'huh' but I guess in your head this makes a male boxer fine to punch women or something?

Rachel McKinnon is now known as Veronica Ivy, so referring to her as Rachel is dead-naming and highly offensive.

Educate yourself.

No worries Baba.

I have been posting this post (albeit with out the years at the start of the paragraphs) for weeks now in one form or other.

I am sure that if the OP was actually keen to understand what was happening and people's views they would have read the numerous informative threads that have been going from the beginning of the olympics when this story first broke.

It actually shows a pretty determined attempt to not try to understand the many patient posts just on this thread and to continue to double down on the dehumanisation and demonising of people who clearly have a deeper understanding of it all. To be blunt, it comes across, whether intentional or not, as someone who is very confused but is keen to virtue signal that they are morally superior.

It might not all be to do with single sex spaces - to be honest that's more of a safety issue caused by men pretending to be trans rather than trans women themselves.

Sigh, it's as if all the words we write are just blah blah. They hear what they want to hear.

So for the lurkers, if a man states he is now a woman/female, for all purposes he is now a woman. That includes but is not limited to
Hospital wards
Rape crisis centres
Any female only toilet
Prison
Youth hostel room
Changing rooms. In shops and sports centres and wherever else you get changing rooms.

Because that's the way it is now.

And for concrete who posted the utter tripe in bold, how do you personally tell the men pretending from the real deal?

Cos we've all been dying to know since 1972

Regardless of differing 'opinions' and whether or not you or anyone else might have an 'issue' with a certain type of thing - biological facts remain consistent and durable. XY is biological male, XX is biological female.

It must be tough to suddenly realise you are not quite what you thought you were.......but given time it is possible to adapt to the newly revealed reality - and in many ways it may well start to make sense of things you've always felt; the ways you never quite fitted, or felt 'different' from the other girls/boys.

All transwomen are by nature and by definition - male.

Thank you. (and commenting for easy re-access). Very clear timeline.
Would be great to see this level of factual overview and clarity in msm.

WTF.

What some male person has told you about their ludicrous claim that they have 'more experience' of being a woman, is fucking irrelevant to the discussion about sport.

And FFS. Why would you listen to such a ludicrous claim in the first place?

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is. They either do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life).

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

To think the statement your relative made is a valid statement around what a woman is, means that person believes in post modernism and certain philosophical beliefs. And not one person on this planet needs to comply with the demand to affirm those beliefs.

I get the feeling that you are choosing not to read posts.

I have an issue with being told I am a man if I insist I am not. I have an issue with someone else being told that when they are insisting they are female.

In the context of a boxing match?

Boxing is divided by sex, age and weight, for saftey reasons. What would the reaction of the audience be if the IOC removed all tests for weight and used other id, that they know isn't reliable, to prove weight?

It's mean to call a 20 stone man heavy, but in the context of a featherweight boxing match, relevant.

Its the same with sex. When sex is relevant it isnt an issue to talk about it. Just because one person said something bonkers to you, doesnt mean we should pretend some males are female.

I get the feeling that this is now deliberate ignoring the facts.

The IOC will not ever produce anything to 'prove otherwise'. Why? Because they have been very clear since November 2021, that their priority is inclusion. They have no requirement to 'prove otherwise'.

I am not sure you are understanding the IOC guidelines and just what they allow versus the sporting federations who were forced by the IOC to develop their own policies and why.

Just to recap how we got here

1999 - From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Ie. The group campaigned that any male with a Difference of Sex Development that had been incorrectly registered as 'female' on their passport was to never be sex tested by the IOC again and allowed to compete as if they were female, regardless of whether they had gone through male puberty.

OK?

Mid 2000s - Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review.

The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, to repeat, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

Yet, this is what the IOC keeps repeating and people just keep accepting this as true. Because apparently the IOC is a bastion of truth!

That is where we are now.

The IBA tested, they are not allowed to release the results. And they should not because it is an athletes medical history. They CAN and HAVE stated clearly multiple times that the athletes are male with testosterone advantage as per their exclusion from the IBA policy. That is all they can release. The policy the IOC forced sports organisations to develop because the IOC refused to.

The IOC is not going to test anyone who has fulfilled the criteria of 'female' in the passport and previous inclusion in competition, regardless of whether an athlete is now excluded with new policy restrictions. But they are not going to test anyone.

The IOC will not ever produce anything to 'prove otherwise' while their policy is in place as it is now.

Your argument doesn't seem to account for the fact that some people talk bollocks. You don't have to accept everything that people say as the truth.

Thank you for the info Snowy. I read that men with 5 ARD grow male pattern body hair but not facial hair. Sounds like the coarseness is a factor too.

Excellent point.

When my argument was 'I am a woman because of my being pregnant and experiencing life as a biological woman'. Which is where that comes from. It's not that 'bizarre' an opinion to have.

It's got little to do with you actually being pregnant, you don't have to get pregnant to be a woman. It is about you being female. You are right that being pregnant is a female experience, but it's odd that you take any notice of what this male says about it. They don't have the power to bestow womanhood on you or take it away. What a woman is excludes them by default. You are female, in the same way that this person is male. And in the same way Imane Khelif is male. It's not a matter of identity.

The difference, @concretevase, is that your insisting that you are female doesn't impinge on the rights and safety of others.

The IOC claim that there isn't a test for sex, because their isn't a test for the IOC definition of sex. Thats a fault with the IOC definition, not the lab that complete the testing.

The IOC want the test to be positive for women, men with dsd and men who have a woman gender identity. As theres not a test that can reliably separate these groups from men, they are using passports. Thats because those groups can get a female passport, not that they are the same sex.

It might not all be to do with single sex spaces - to be honest that's more of a safety issue caused by men pretending to be trans rather than trans women themselves.

Any male who calls himself a woman is a "trans woman", there is no gatekeeping. The problem is the male sex, whatever they call themselves. There is no evidence (and you like evidence) that "trans women" pose any less risk to women than other members of the male sex. Plus it's not just about safety, it's a privacy and dignity issue.

have an issue with being told I am a man if I insist I am not. I have an issue with someone else being told that when they are insisting they are female.

You do realise that many "trans women" also insist they are female? Aren't they wrong?

I don't think anything will convince you. You've ignored all the evidence that exists, the comments by several women who have fought against them, the IOC faux pas, the interview with coach George Cazorlas. You just handwave it away because you believe the IBA is more corrupt than the IOC. And that fine. We can disagree, can't we? You'll just have to continue being "appalled" by our wrongthink I guess.

Concrete vase

And why do you think that the IOC have not done any chromosomal testing? It's a cheek swab and you get a result within hours.

The IBA ordered the tests. The actual testing was done twice on each boxer, eight months apart at two different ISO accredited labs.

zib

I think it is because some people choose to believe that the IOC is squeaky clean and doesn't have a long history of corruption. So they choose to accept the IOC judgement vs the IBO, WBO & EBC. Because, the IBO has been declared corrupt by the corrupt IOC.

How many times does this need to be said?

The IOC is NOT going to run tests because for the past 25 years, since the IOC dropped sex testing specifically to allow these male athletes to compete in the female category, the IOC's policies has been to allow male people with male pubertal advantage to compete in the female category. They are not going to run tests. They have stated very very clearly that these boxers fulfil the IOC criteria to compete.

You really seem uninformed about this topic and yet, you are the one here that is denigrating and demonising and with the 'baying mob' dehumanising people who seem to be much better informed than you are.

In fact, it may not surprise many of those who are better informed, but the WA guidelines which meant that many of these male athletes that are almost certainly expected to have exactly the same type of DSD as these two boxers were suddenly 'excluded' from athletes so they could not compete at the Olympics.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

13 of them in fact! Just in athletics.

13 MALE PEOPLE WITH DSDs JUST IN ATHLETICS IN 2023.

"Coe said this will impact 13 DSD athletes, seven (55%) of whom compete in running events above a mile, with six (45%) in sprinting events below 400m."

But no doubt, unless Coe completely removes the loophole and simply says 'no', ie. not even with a testosterone level of 2.5 nmol/L suppression condition, many of those 13 will be out there attempting to qualify to get into the 2028 Olympics because they will have kept their testosterone level down for 2 years.

What part of elite female sports categories have had male athletes with DSDs that meant male virilisation competing since the sex testing was stopped is confusing?

Why then is it suddenly so hard to believe that it is highly likely for these athletes are indeed male as per the IBA tests indicated?

A question was asked upthread about Semenya? Semenya was one of 3 male athletes that won 1st, 2nd, & 3rd in the female 800m. Semenya has female on their passport. The only reason Semenya is not competing in the Olympics is because the WA regulations would force Semenya to suppress testosterone from 21 mol/L to 2.5. Semenya took the IOC to CAS about the IOC changes to this before the IOC pushed the responsibility to organise and regulate all sports to their international sporting federations.

What is the difference between Semenya pre-CAS evidence and even since and either of these two boxers? Proof? Fuck that. Nobody will release the 'evidence' in the detail that some people are insisting on unless it is done via court cases. It can only ever be assumed because the WA tests have been done and have been believed. Whereas the IBA tests have been done, and are not believed by some and the IOC, an organisation with a very long history of corruption continues to be believed over the IBA, WBO & EBC.

So, well done all those declaring 'no evidence'... you must feel good that for years to come there will be nothing to convince you otherwise because until one of the boxers starts saying things as Semenya has recently like 'my testicles don't make me less of a woman', you can continue on your righteous way. And you can ignore the issue while demonising, dehumanising and vilifying those who disagree with you and understand the IOC's policy history and how this situation came about.

I am sure you will all feel lovely because if in the future these two boxers just disappear (I mean Lin is now rumoured to have been set up financially with a large lump sum and $3,500 per month for life) and the truth will never be known, you will continue to feel righteous. Yet will have done nothing but support male athletes being included in female sports categories. Something that it seems some of you agree should not happen, but seem to be fully willing to believe that despite testing, these two boxers are female and feminists are vile, disgusting and braying mobs.