What is a woman?

any male that low is doping.

About half the men in the study. So it seems entirely possible some of the women were too.

Doesn't the boxer have xy chromosomes? I also saw in an article (no idea if its true) that the boxer is infertile. The boxer in question is also said to produce more testosterone than a woman should. The boxer has been described as androgynous. I think if the boxers condition causes as a symptom, to be stronger, more muscular than a woman (genetically speaking) they should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

The elite male athletes with exceptionally low testosterone was explained on one of the medical clips on YouTube. If they are using testosterone outside competitions then their bodies stop producing it, when they stop it takes time for the body to catch up and start production again so you get a temporary dip. Basically any male that low is doping.

@concretevase
A woman is an adult human female.

@concretevase an interview with Khelif's trainer: https://www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php

Confirms that Khelif has both a male karyotype and high testosterone levels.

I think I prefer this one thanks.

Produced from the results from a study done by an Endocrinologist, Dr David Handelsman and not from an extreme transgender rights activist that has a background in philosophy.

Note the 'Semenya' line is the level that Semenya took the IOC to CAS to have overturned. That is the line that the IOC decided that male people with DSDs that produce testosterone and utilise it in their bodies had to suppress their testosterone to, to enable them to compete at the Olympics in those athletic events. The Hubbard line is the line that the IOC declared that males with trans identities had to suppress to.

Can you explain whether that chart from McKinnon includes suppressed testosterone or shows what their natural levels are? Or does it also include male people who have been castrated too?

Also, setting aside the occasional dot of female outlier, the solid chunk of men well below the normal male reference range is very odd. Especially for elite athletes, who are likely to be relatively young - so should have an average slightly above the general population average.

This maybe useful regarding testosterone levels in men and women.

https://womenssportspolicy.org/q10-dont-some-healthy-females-produce-testosterone-in-the-male-range/

It shows a different graph, showing different results.

"But she says she is not, never has been, is not trans, and there are people here that are labelling her as 'he' and not even seeing the irony in the argument."

People are calling this male a 'he' because they have been tested and shown to have XY chromosomes and a physical advantage over female people due to androgenisation from a male puberty. ie. they have been assessed to have male pubertal advantages.

Having male pubertal advantages means that this person produces and processes testosterone and therefore has testes and is male. I don't believe that people have been saying anything different on MN about who is male and who is female. I don't see any 'irony' here, unless you are choosing to ignore the two tests done by the IBA and are purely reading and accepting without question media articles and the IOC. The same people who have called Semenya 'a female with high testosterone' for years now, when the reality is that Semenya has testes (even Semenya now admits this) and has male levels of testosterone that virilised Semenya's body. Because Semenya is a male person.

The very same people are still calling Semenya a female and a woman and using almost the same story for Semenya as they are for Khelif.

The precedent has been set already for the IOC and the media to be judged as being predisposed to spreading misinformation on this. You seem to wish to believe them. Great. But do so knowing that they have been shown to be giving false information about Semenya in the past.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish

That graph is wrong. It looks to me as if it has been manipulated by someone (not you) because the pink and blue sections are the right shape but the blue bit has shifted along the bottom axis. The blue bit should start around 10nmol/L. The pink bit looks correct.
There is no overlap at all between testosterone levels of healthy men and women. Sometimes men have to artificially lower their testosterone while having cancer treatment, and women with cancer can have elevated levels of testosterone.

Sexual reproduction is a biological process of gamete fusion, therefore the sexes are biological realities, not people's identities or feelings. There are only and exactly two gametes, therefore only and exactly two sexes. The sex which has the function of producing small gametes is the male, the female has the function of producing large gametes. A woman is an adult human female.
In the case of a DSD in which genitalia are ambiguous at birth and the individual develops the phenotype of the opposite sex even after puberty, a decision can be made by the individual to present as if of the sex of which their phenotype most resembles. That is not earning the right to call yourself a woman - if you have the phenotype of the opposite sex it makes sense in some/most situations to be treated as if you were the opposite sex.

Khelif has a very clearly male phenotype, so this doesn't apply to him. And he shouldn't be punching women, whatever his own personal feelings or motivation.

Edited for clarity

Not necessarily....mine have run out. Plus the uterus might go as well.

A graph produced by Rachel McKinnon may not be based on the most accurate data.

I don't believe people on MN are labelling this person as being transgender.

And if any person has a body formed around the potential to produce small gametes, regardless of whether they produce those or not, they are male.

The only relevant body part is whether they have testes or ovaries. And for sport, we can then go further and state that it is relevant whether those testes are producing testosterone, and whether that testosterone has been used at all by the body to virilise.

What part of the IBA testing do you disagree with OP? The IBA test stated that both boxers have XY chromosomes and have judged that their bodies have male pubertal advantage. ie. that their bodies have virilised with the testosterone that their bodies produce.

Therefore, it is very likely that they have the same or similar Difference of Sex Development that Semenya has. Which was proven to be 5ARD. Which means that Semenya has testes that work to produce the same levels of testosterone as a male born without a DSD and that has virilised Semenya's body.

Again, no other body part is relevant after the finding of testes in the body. Even when those are undescended.

I don't recall feminists saying things that differed to this on MN previously.

I'm going by Khelifs assertion she is female and always has been

That proves nothing whatsoever about internal anatomy.

Thanks for the testosterone paper. Interesting, but disagrees with the systematic review linked in this piece https://theconversation.com/are-maternal-hormones-different-when-carrying-a-boy-or-a-girl-78348 which did find a rise throughout pregnancy but not a significant difference according to fetal sex.

And the top level of the rise is still way below normal male levels.

I would except she's also lost nine consecutive matches so if she is a bloke those nine women are stronger blokes than her

Maybe this will help.

This is why the 'But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', 'what does it matter,' type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, there performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

This also shows that lowering testosterone simply does not remove the advantage gained by any degree of male puberty .

And this is an explanation of meaningful sports competition from philosopher Jon Pike who has a sports speciality.

Meaningful competition by Jon Pike

And referred to in this tweet:

”The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false.”

“I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong’.”

”Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15:”

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

Getting back to that bone density. To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

An adult who was born with female organs ovaries etc. if you were to cut someone open they would be either a male or a female regardless to how they choose to present themselves (I don’t mean that to sound harsh dress how you please but when it comes down to it you either have a male or female body regardless as to how you feel - which I have no issue with)

Without access to this study, were the participants also tested for doping?

Just to clarify something from earlier, while its true that for the vast majority of women testosterone range does not overlap with mens it isnt always true (see graph) This graph was derived from data of elite sportspeople and they were chromosomally tested at same time so it indicates xx and xy overlap.

I think "what is a woman/what is a man" is a good question that does need discussion and differing insights but i don't think the presence/absence of a Y chromosome is as definitive as many say and its a shame that this is used to try and shut down the discussion. I think there are valid arguments that people born with androgen insensitivity, with a uterus and vulva and breasts and having lived an entire life as a woman have a right to use the word "woman" to describe themselves.
This is not a sports argument, btw. Most people are not elite athletes.

Seriously?

Loads of people say they're female when they aren't.

That's nowhere near rigorous enough for the Olympics.

At this point, presumably Imale was already boxing

An interview with IK credited the Rio Olympics as the inspiration to begin boxing. Which would have been at age 17.

You seem to be suggesting that a certain person who has XY chromosomes and has been through male puberty, has a uterus, vagina and boobs. Sorry if that isn't what you are saying, but that is how it seems to me.

I think that the issue is partly that even if Imane had been raised female, because doctors had not fully recognised the medical condition at birth, it would definitely have become clear that further investigation was required around puberty.

At this point, presumably Imale was already boxing, the question must have arisen as to how or if to continue with this particular sport. And the choice seems to have been to continue to fight women, essentially prioritising Imane's hope of glory over the safety of the women opponents.

While I may have felt sorry at the time for a young teen who had to make a choice to stop competing in a sport they loved, I definitely don't feel in anyway sorry for a man, (if Imane does indeed have xy) who chose to continue fighting women.

Life is not always fair and just as some people's bodies or minds do not enable them to compete at sport, Imane's body might not be the right type to compete in a women's category.
This doesn't mean that Imane shouldn't or can't enjoy sport in general.

It doesn't matter a jot whether someone has "lived as a female" all their life.

What matters is whether they are actually female and competing on a level playing field with female athletes.

The only two organs which produce testosterone are testes and ovaries. Testes produce it in large quantities and ovaries produce it in small quantities. The female and male ranges of testosterone in the body do not overlap. A woman who has PCOS does not have testosterone in the male range. A female person cannot get their testosterone in the male range even by doping, or taking exogenous testosterone as part of gender affirming care. A male person cannot get their testosterone in the female range even by taking female sex hormones. There is no overlap. None whatsoever. (You also don't have high testosterone just because you are pregnant with a male foetus. Human males only start to produce large quantities of testosterone from puberty.)

It simply isn't fair or safe to let biological males compete in women's sports. Even if those biological males have "lived as females" for their whole lives. Even if they had no idea they weren't actually female until the International Boxing Association tested their chromosomes. Even if banning them from competing in women's sport will crush their lifelong dreams.

Quite obviously, the International Boxing Association cannot publish people's private medical information. But if the International Olympic Committee considered that the International Boxing Association was an untrustworthy organisation and that consequently its tests couldn't be relied on, they should have performed their own tests rather than just going by what it says in the athlete's passports.

(Incidentally, arguing on the Internet is also about skill.)