Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

Thanks asportsmum . It looks like an employee policy rather than applicable to boxers, so no help there.

@Iwishihadariver Is this the policy you were unable to open? It opened fine for me just now.
https://www.gbboxing.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/BABA-Equality-Policy.pdf

@sunburnandsangria we shouldn't judge just on a still photo - they can be misleading if the lighting is in just the wrong place or something (but, hmm, it's sometimes quite hard not to isn't it?).

I am in need of some light humour... thank you... like at the end of Years and Years where Viv Rock reveals that she is being controlled. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_and_Years_(TV_series)

An Algerian poster who knows the language says that’s a very common colloquialism, and that in another Arabic language the female version of ‘people’ is used by men. It’s not definitive, basically.

And women use groin guards and chest guards, though the shape of the groin guard may be slightly different.

The photo doesn’t really clarify anything, despite my wanting it to.

I’m struggling to find video of Khelif’s winning bout. Would anyone be able to provide a link? Thanks

It's a conundrum for sure.

There's a third group of children who were brought up as a different sex to their birth sex (the other two being children with some DSDs* and children who were transitioned by their parents very early). These are boys who lost their penis through trauma, usually botched circumcision. At one sad point in history these boys were further mutilated without their consent and brought up as girls. The literature tells us that this almost never works out.

Is it because of some innate sex linked gender identity? Or is it because children aren't stupid and get that something's not quite right? 5-ARDS boys don't have female genitals, although there can be different levels of ambiguity, it could be a similar situation.

And of course, the 5-ARDS boys get some of their development later on unlike those that were permanently damaged.

*Important to acknowledge that historically some children with DSDs were also given permanent surgical procedures to help them "pass" without their consent.

Just popping in to say: have you seen the podium photo from the 2022 African championships on Imane's insta?!

I agree with pp on the previous threads that we shouldn't be judging on looks alone..... but it does give the distinct impression that other nations may also exploit the DSD issue in selecting their 'female' athletes.

(Can't attach an image, phone won't let me do it).

I'm sorry: the alternative should perhaps have been 'a special kind of man'. The trouble is that Semenya doesn't seem to esteem female attributes, so wouldn't subscribe to that, either.

A couple of posters on X claim Imane used male forms of words when being interviewed in their native language. There is also a photo of Imane modelling a groin guard.

I wonder why there is so much focus on one competitor and not on the whole competition / overall rules. (I must admit to being afraid that we are being distracted and there will be a revelation that undermines our arguments and puts us even further back than we are now).

When the IBA tested in 2022 (I hope that I have remembered the date correctly), they teated 5 boxers in the female category where questions had been raised and all five of them were male.

I think we also need to retain sight of the fact that the IOC have created these rules and they believe in them. The footballers played in Spain and currently have lucrative contracts in the US. Many cycling organisations in the US and Canada do not restrict the female category to biological females and UK cycling had to come under significant pressure from a very high profile female olympian in order to rethink their eligibility criteria.

It is not an issue that comes out of the global south, the cheating east or the uneducated women oppressing elsewhere... it is right here, everywhere sport is practiced.. at the centre of all sports.

Not one single sporting organisation has come out and stated unequivocally, without caveat, that the womens' category should be, will always be and always has been, exclusively for women.

I agree with what you're saying here in theory.

However, if we're being told that Khelif would not been aware of his maleness due to his upbringing in rural, conservative Algeria, I think it is fair enough to point out his behaviour would not be acceptable from a female in rural, conservative Algeria.

I take all the points made about my earlier posts, I'm by no means defending Khelif, and my sympathy is 100% with the women cheated out of medals.
I just think it's a slightly different case from Semenya who didn't even pretend.
Now about eyebrows - when I was reading up about Khelif, there were lots of photos and in some of them the make-up was really professional - eyeshadow, eyeliner, foundation, contouring, the works. Worx?😋.
So in some photos she definitely looks like a woman; a woman with strong features, granted, but a woman, thanks to very skilfully applied make-up, definitely beyond the 'put a bit of lippy on' level.

Whether Khelif is good at doing Khelif's own make-up, or there is somebody who does it to bolster the woman-essence-ness, I don't know, but it is a significant element in how Khelif presents.

I never thought I'd [a] be suspected of being a bit wishy-washy around gender and [b] discussing make-up on MN!😳

Even Semenya prefers to see herself as a special kind of woman rather than a defective man.

Well, if that was the binary on offer, so would I. If the binary were reversed I still wouldn't be content with the word "defective" in play. 5-ARD is a VSD/VSC, variation of sexual development/variations in sex characteristics, no need for the word defect/ive.

I don't agree with you on this - I don't think that any behaviour is, or should be used as, a measure of female-ness.

@MarieDeGournay @ditalini @PinkTonic

I think individuals can live with a great deal of cognitive dissonance. Even Semenya prefers to see herself as a special kind of woman rather than a defective man.

But Khelif and Semenya both seem to have very male personalities (eg playing out with other boys as a child), which makes me wonder if there is something in the idea of gender identity after all.

Obviously I can't subscribe to the idea of cross-sex gender identity, because, without further evidence, it's an unfalsifiable proposition.

But having your developing brain doused in T must make a difference.

AFAIK CAIS women behave like women (and I do know that it's virtually unknown for them to identify as trans men). (I'm wondering now what their rates of violent and sexual offending are.)

More worryingly for me as a feminist, I'm wondering if Semenya and Khelif have got away with things in their lives that other 'little girls' wouldn't have, not (just) because they were potential sporting standouts, but because of their aggressive personalities.

(We're being oppressed because we're too nice? 😒.)

Anyhow, this post was brought to you by the department for overthinking......

Im a very relaxed liberal western atheist who works exclusively with men and often socialises with entire groups of men and i have never once rubbed any of their heads into my breast when greeting or celebrating with them. None of them has ever patted me on my breast either.

Personally, I wouldn't have thought that this would be deemed acceptable for a Muslim woman.

Sorry, I meant to say 'sitting, moving' not 'sitting, living'

Fuck, that's me in the man box then.

I know some very liberal Muslims in the UK. Women who have never covered their heads, who drink alcohol, have open relationships outside marriage. I cannot imagine any of them sitting, living or interacting with men the way I've seen Khelif do.