Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

The premise was that Sharron and Charlie took turns asking each other a question. They then had to listen to the answer without interrupting and then say what they thought the other person had said in their answer. I think a list of questions was provided to them but not certain on that point

I heard the second half and it made for an uncomfortable listen. I didn’t know who was who, apart from Sharon. There were a lot of stuck silences. Sharron was clear and calm and consistent.
Other people were then a bit stuck as their usual go defence of bellowing ‘bigot’ clearly wasn’t available.

I’d like to listen from the start to get a better idea of how it was framed.

This

spannasaurus · Today 16:45

Charlie was never going to meet in the centre. Charlie was never going to agree with anyone who doesn't believe that transwoman are women

I agree, he would try to drag the line for the centre ground further and further to him.

Charlie was never going to meet in the centre. Charlie was never going to agree with anyone who doesn't believe that transwoman are women

The 'centre ground' isn't women agreeing that men can be women. It's third spaces. But for some reason, women failing to surrender their position is seen as being rigid, while men failing to surrender their desire to use women's spaces is seen as evidence of sincerity and a reason we should acquiesce.

Women are service humans, again.

In case anyone is interested in how that discussion went, according to the format of the programme, the two sides seek to find a centre ground with the guiding hand of a mediator.

However, in this case, the mediator could see that Davies wouldn't be steered to the centre ground by having emotional manipulation used against her and wasn't well disposed to her. However, she did approve of Charlie Martin for complying with the mediation format. Martin got the mediator onside by suggesting that Davies was mean, and how it was such a shame she wouldn't comply with policed language.

Although a failure, the programme was an effective illustration of why going to the centre ground won't work. If getting to that centre ground happens by the application of misinformation and emotional blackmail, the centre ground is a trap.

In half on hour on Radio 4:

Anne McElvoy and a conflict resolution expert explore the issues around trans athletes in sport with swimmer Sharron Davies and motorsport racer and trans activist Charlie Martin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021xst

Or, IK could be exhibiting the natural speech patterns and manerisms of a gentle sort of person, of which there are many men, gay and straight.

Some behaviour is learned, some is innate, some is used to portray a persona that the person feels communicates something about themselves, or how they would like to be or be perceived.

As another poster had already commented on, the lack of recognition and acceptance of LGBT lives in Algeria is an issue - if IK internally identifies as a gay man or straight woman then they're better of in their current public identity, but if they internally identify as a lesbian or straight man then they're at odds with what's acceptable at home.

I wish them absolutely well and fully support them to live their life however makes them happiest and makes most sense to them, outside of participation in female sport.

Haha "British sheep noises" reminds me of General Melchett from Blackadder 😂

Very good. No audible response though. Disconcerting, when we’re used to British sheep noises and heckling.

She is so fabulously clear in thought and speech. Thanks for posting

I think I hope, for his sake, that it would be better if he's in on the con/take the money and run. A boxing match, let along one with a gold medal at stake, must be quite febrile. They're trained to fight but also probably trained to be arseholes when they're in the ring. They're not there to make friends. I can easily believe Khelif can be a lovely chap on a personal level.

I'm not going to lose sleep over him, but being raised as one sex and then truly being told you're the other, not just some bullshit gender feels, well I bet that's quite the ride. If he still thinks of himself as a woman but cannot countenance being trans I can't help wondering how it's going to work out, what the future holds for him. It could all be played out very publicly and while I don't have much sympathy for him i don't wish him harm.

It's odd to be thinking of Khelif's future domestic arrangements, lcakethereforeIam, but I also can't help thinking that there's a messed-up individual at the heart of this, and what happens after the blaze of ill-gotten glory?

I've been trawling through lots of French-language Algerian websites recently, and have seen a few videos of IK being interviewed in which his voice, mannerisms, body language etc are not at all 'bloke-ish'. He comes across, outside the ring, as reserved, quietly-spoken and...well, pleasant. He looks to me like someone who was indeed brought up 'as a girl', and shows the effects of that socialisation in his mannerisms.
This is no 'Do it like a dude' Semenya.

As I've said in previous posts, if I wasn't paying close attention, and saw and overheard IK in one of those lesbian bars [remember them?] I used to frequent occasionally visit, I wouldn't be outraged that a man had been let into our lesbian space [the past is a different country..🙄].
But once inside the boxing ring, it looks like 'she' has been replaced by her muscly arrogant older brother, who isn't that great a boxer but wins easily if he fights with boxers from lower weight categories. Not that the boxing authorities would ever allow such a dangerous mismatch, of course...

The no-expense-spared, no-holds-barred machine identified the 17 year old Khelif as potential raw material, and worked relentlessly to turn out a medal-winner at the Olympics, regardless of the cost to the other women boxers, to the integrity of the sport - or, I think, to Khelif, who was a useful (and willing, of course) pawn.

Chersfrozenface · Today 10:50

But if everyone in the country knows full well that Semenya is male, and that the "woman" schtick is entirely for external consumption, it's less of a problem, of course.

Well, quite. It's pretty obvious that everyone and their dog knows the reality of it.

Hes already based in Nice in France I believe. He will live in France where he can date the sex of his choice. Although not sure how this will go down there amongst the French LGBTQ+ brigade now thats he's publicly denouced being trans as shameful.

Hopefully for him hes gay and therefore can have gay sex with men in France and claim that that is appropriate as a nice muslim girl.

Dutee Chand is known as ‘India’s first openly LGBT athlete’ so being attracted to women seems to have been at least somewhat socially acceptable in that DSD sports case too (although I believe Chand’s sister was not at all ok with it).

Perhaps a gold medal will afford enough national status to do as IK pleases without much criticism?

Alternatively, perhaps the cash/fame will help IK relocate?

Caster Semenya married a woman, in a country not known for its enlightened attitude to same sex relationships.

But if everyone in the country knows full well that Semenya is male, and that the "woman" schtick is entirely for external consumption, it's less of a problem, of course.

I wonder how that would work in Algeria.

I can imagine IK, with his culture, having a bit of a dilemma finding a partner to settle down with. There's part who may truly believe he's female, they'll expect him to find a nice man to settle down with. He's now wealthy and famous, he's quite the catch. The part that know he's male, might not be able to stomach seeing him in a relationship with another man. Although, as massive hypocrites, perhaps some would be fine with it. But all of them? Then there are his natural inclinations, if he's not same sex attracted he may be in a bit of a bind.

Makes you wonder if any of the subscribers to The Eunuch Maker’s live amputation webcasts were academics…

Totally. And I bet it's more prevalent than one would think.

I'm sure there was a movie about it a while back.

The author of the above guff presented the following talk at an academic conference in Manchester (see screenshot).

Gonna go out on a limb here (pun intended) and say that women’s sporting federations should not give a shiny shit about criticism from someone who believes that objections to serious, life threatening self harm are motivated by prejudice against disabled people.

Makes you wonder if any of the subscribers to The Eunuch Maker’s live amputation webcasts were academics…

Arh you have noticed the massive fuck off loophole. Coaches used to force doping. Now women aren't allowed to dope. But if a coach finds a male certified as a female with raised testosterone levels and greater physical size and strength that's fine.

And we wonder why there is an overrepresentation of DSDs in female sport and why the coaches are so fiercely arguing 'shes a woman'.

Don't worry soon males born male will be able to enter women's boxing because of an F their passport.

Easy handwave. Had to say it to remain safe, given Algerian laws and attitudes.

How do they prove to the testers that the T is endogenous? Medical records? The ones revealing the existence of functional testes? How does anyone keep a straight face?

They don’t get tested for naturally circulating testosterone though, do they? If there is a DSD issue, then testosterone testing would take that into consideration.