Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

Many apologies if this has been asked before, regarding the boxers and DSD. Would the scientists, the IBA, the WBO and the coach still say XY if Khelief has a DSD? Surely his coach would try to muddy the waters even more by mentioning an X chromosome? But always it has just been XY.

Not sure I understand the question @FlippinFumin?
You can be XY and have a DSD. The fact that Khelif was registered and raised as a girl and they're also saying XY implies a DSD.

https://ovarit.com/o/SaveWomensSports/590503/from-memory-lane-in-2009-after-winning-first-women-s-world-championship-title-ca

^ interesting post about Caster Semenya there

Best part, quoted from the article:

Britain's Daily Mirror went so far as to point out her name is an anagram for the phrase: "A secret man? Yes."

With regard to the legal case, the Daily Mail article linked above quotes the boxer

Khelif told a press conference after winning her medal: 'I am a woman like any woman. I was born a woman and I have lived as a woman but there are enemies to success and they can't digest my success.'
She later added: 'All that is being said about me on social media is immoral. I want to change the minds of people around the world.'

Would Khelif do this if she didn't really identify as a woman??

To be clear, I don't think it was at all fair that she was included in the Olympics as it seems fairly clear she has had a male puberty so shouldn't have been eligible imo. So I'm really just addressing those comments saying she definitely knows she's a man, she's a cheat, is laughing at us etc.

We can't know for sure what Khelif believes really? The quotes above suggest to me that she does truly believe she's a woman even if she knows she's different.

I wasn't sure what pronouns to use btw. Going with she as DSDs are complicated psychologically so I'd tend to use whatever the person who's affected chooses In that case...even if I wouldn't allow the same person to box.

I love the way we come back and say 'sorry I was snippy' on MN - a bit of a rarity in most online discussions!
It is welcome and valuable, and this is for everybody who has ever apologised for being snippy:

They're not faffing around with Be Kind bullshit on Ovarit, either

I've just been browsing a bit on Ovarit and I’m very disappointed to find even there, at least one person insisting that Khelif has been maligned and dancing on the head of a pin re. the wording used in the French interview. It's bonkers.

Perhaps the flag was to heavy for those delicate little wrists.

My guess is someone had cold feet. Who I don't know.

But it has to be said that I'm not sure the image of Khelif holding the flag would age well for Khelif, Algeria or the IOC. So take your pick about who got cold feet with that one.

Khelif was initially listed as the flag bearer at the closing ceremony. However this was later changed for reasons unknown.

Yes I realised I sounded snippy which was unintentional but was too late to edit. Apologies

Wasn’t Lin Yu-Ting also supposed to be a flag-bearer? I’m not sure that happened at the ceremony as far as I could see, and I heard no mention from the commentary (unlike Khelif, who was briefly name-checked)

Same here, I just assumed that Ovait's opinion is the natural conclusion of a radfem site, so not surprising.

I didn't take any negativity from saying Ovarit = radfems.

I'd have to read more of the posts to see if I agree that it espouses a radical feminist analysis, but if it does, that's great, good to have different perspectives

Yep, Ovarit is a radfem site - as in, set up and run by radfems

You say that as though it’s a negative thing? Or have I misunderstood?

Many apologies if this has been asked before, regarding the boxers and DSD. Would the scientists, the IBA, the WBO and the coach still say XY if Khelief has a DSD? Surely his coach would try to muddy the waters even more by mentioning an X chromosome? But always it has just been XY.

Also, fuming, Lin was apparently invited to the Olympics. Can we assume they both were? For shits and giggles and Bach had already written all his speeches about inclusion. So very pleased he is going.

Imane Khelif's trainer admits 'problem with chromosomes' after boxer took gold: 'This poor young girl was devastated' | Daily Mail Online

Fingers crossed Coe becomes ioc president and carries through his pledge to stand up for women's sport. 👏

Yep, Ovarit is a radfem site - as in, set up and run by radfems. Doesn’t mean other women can’t comment, of course.

Blimey, they're thorough, aren't they? Make us look like dilettantes!
My fave posts were

"My testicles don't make me any less of a woman" Oh honey.
and
"There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman."
This feels like looking at my brother's dog and saying "There is a problem with his chromosomes but he really is human! He's your son!"

I wonder if the BBC will have the front to stick one of these guys on their 100 inspirational women list? They'll definitely be popping up on some similar lists. I doubt IK would be pleased to win an LGBTQ+ award though. Or perhaps he would? If he wins an award, say some sort of sports personality thing with a glittering black tie ceremony, I'd love to see what he'd wear to accept it.

So why was khelif switched out at the last minute from carrying the flag?

They're not faffing around with Be Kind bullshit on Ovarit, either.

ovarit.com/o/SaveWomensSports/589914/2024-olympics-imane-khelif-was-devastated-to-suddenly-discover-that-she-might-no

There's a great post over at r/fourthwavewomen on Reddit about this, covers pretty much everything very nicely:

https://www.reddit.com/r/fourthwavewomen/comments/1ep6ydk/comment/lhndrke/

SM posts I'm seeing are generally much more critical of the boxers now than a week ago, but whether that's just about algorithms, I dunno. But I did note a complaint from one woman who said, all you who are criticising Khelif are all men. And it was true, mostly. Posts opposing the boxers were in a minority, but most of them were by men. And most posts backing them were from women. Which is depressing, but perhaps not unsurprising.

Yeah I saw that too. Proof positive that Khelif is a woman!

Flaming hell!
From the Reduxx article a few posts upthread:

'Speaking to Radio Marca, former Olympian boxer and Olympic boxing trainer Rafa Lozano revealed that he thought the inclusion of Khelif in the women’s category was unjust and dangerous to females. “I don’t see it as fair. Everyone can think what they want, but that’s how I see it,” Lozano said, recalling his observations of the Algerian during a training retreat at the sport centre CAR Blume in Madrid.

“They were doing a retreat at Blume and we couldn’t put her with anyone. We put [Khelif] with Jennifer Fernandez and it hurt her. Whoever we put [Khelif] with was injured.”

Lozano says that to avoid further injury to the women, the coaches ended up pairing Khelif up with Jose Quiles, who is one of Spain’s top male boxers, during the retreat. Quiles, 26 and one of Spain’s top boxers, was considered a more equitable match for Khelif to spar against, with Lozano noting that Khelif was only “even” after being matched against the man.'