BBC finally acknowledges something may be amiss in Olympics women's boxing

I am on my phone at the moment and cannot check this until tonight.

Does the person in question have ovaries at all?

It really could be very simple.

XX people compete in the womens category.
Everyone else competes in open category.

Everyone gets a chance at competing. Not fair on those with dsds? Maybe give them their own category, or maybe tell them to train harder, longer, better like the XX women are being told to do right now.

Well you see, one super easy way to get laudits for "equal gender representation" while still giving men the advantage is to allow self-ID.

I don't think menstruation has ever been reported in this situation.

@Helleofabore
Actually, I didn't read closely enough, sorry. One of the CAIS cases the linked article reviewed did have cyclical vaginal bloody spotting at least.

Exactly. Females with AIS are not affected because the other X chromosome compensates.

For example, females with a DSD known as androgen insensitivity syndrome have XY chromosomes; they produce testosterone; but their bodies aren’t equipped to process it. So they don’t get any of the benefits from that testosterone, like males do.

Article pretending to clarify situation actually seeks to confuse the reader and muddy the waters.

@Helleofabore
eg
www.frontiersin.org/journals/pediatrics/articles/10.3389/fped.2024.1400319/full

I'm not talking about CAIS in particular, no.

There are many DSDs.

Very rarely, someone can be XX (or X) in some parts of the body and XY in other parts. Obviously, I'm not talking about fully functioning male and female anatomy occuring side by side, but there can be vestigal/atrophied/partially functioning organs of both sexes present in one human body on very rare occasions. Menstruation has been reported in the scientific literature in at least one of these instances to my knowledge.

People with CAIS usually don't have internal female anatomy, but in some extremely rare cases it is possible to have some degree of ovary/uterus/fallopian tube like structures with CAIS. I don't think menstruation has ever been reported in this situation.

Will BBC do some investigative journalism as to how much money the American sponsors paid to ensure this happened?

And who specifically is pulling the strings?

Almost certainly not.
Given their ongoing dereliction of their duty and yet another paedophile scandal that they tried to cover up - again, SURELY now, either Tim Davie is axed and/or the whole sorry institution is defunded

And given the IOC spokesman is Starmers mate its like pigs at the trough.

How does a person with testes and without any ovaries menstruate?

If the body parts are not present, this is an impossibility. You are claiming a complexity by utilising other differences of sexual development to support your position surely.

Please tell us how a male diagnosed with CAIS menstruates? They have testes and no ovaries. How do they ever have the potential to menstruate? Please back up your claims with evidence.

@FiveFoxes but it's not even as simple as saying only XX in women's sports categories... you can get a man with XX chromosomes (de la chapel syndrome) who would develop like a boy/man, male external genitalia, develop male body hair etc... but could in theory ID as a woman and compete.

For some DSD saying it's as simple as 'just' chromosomes/ karotype/ genitals & reproductive tract alone aren't going to give us the categories of men / women we want for fair sport.

May be possible in exceptionally rare cases, though the organs will not appear or function normally. That is the nature of genetic mutation.

Which is my point. It's not as clearcut - with distinct categories- as you seem to imagine.

What part of having testes is part of having the potential to menstruate?

This. It doesn't matter if a male has no biological advantage over a female, if they are biologically male then they shouldn't be in the female category - even if they have a DSD that means they have a more female looking body.

Because specific DSDs have their own collective categories and needs based on those categories.

@Hellofabore
Often, it's not a clear-cut as that - eg a mutation in an enzyme may partially affect its functioning (to varying degrees) or may completely knock out function. So even when you're looking at mutations in a single enzyme, phenotypes can vary.
And rarely there is no suitable category anyway, such is the unique nature of the DSD.

My grandma thought you had to get pregnant via the belly button. It was a shock when she was told otherwise after her wedding.

(Yes I know this is at odds with my earlier snarky comment.)

Author of the article has tweeted about it here: https://x.com/SofiaBettiza/status/1821826347074752979

Perhaps those of us with Twitter account could leave some kind words of encouragement and appreciativeness?

I know there are things in the article to nitpick (and plenty are doing so in the replies to that tweet) but this is a sea change for the BBC in actually publishing a fairly balanced article on a highly controversial sex and gender issue. Worth recognising I think.

@Crouton19

Males as a class have male advantage. The fact that a specific male or group of males has a reduced advantage doesn't matter.

CAIS males are over-represented in the women's category of elite sport. Since they will have come up through female sporting pathways and, with the same prejudices and restricted access to resources, this fact of over-representation alone creates a strong presumption of advantage. It's the perfect experiment. Males who look like females, are treated as female, still do better at sport than females. How can it not be a specifically male advantage/female disadvantage?

CAIS males are taller on average than women. As a class, they are taller. Height is an advantage in most sports and the reason they are taller is because they are male.

No CAIS male has periods.
If a woman does not have periods, something is wrong. Perhaps she is over-training, or has taken hormonal medication. A CAIS male without periods is a normal healthy individual.
You are making exactly the same argument as could be made for inclusion of a male with another kind of disability. If CAIS males are in female sport, why shouldn't disabled males or males with a performance-limiting medical condition also compete in female sport?

Which brings me to the fact that there is no reciprocity. Where are the females with DSDs doing well in men's elite sport?

Males should be banned where they have male advantage.

Males should be banned because they are not female. The female category is not for males with medical conditions.

I’m quite concerned that someone who looks unambiguously female can get to 33 and not seek out some sort of medical advice re: the lack of a period. Presumably the relative who never menstruated is ann older relative and hadn’t sought medical adevice either?

Yes, I found this surprising. Even more so that the woman was evidently trying to conceive- surely her lack of periods must have given her reason to think it might be tricky to get pregnant?

If not why not?
If Y then not.

"Are they going to have an unfair sporting advantage as against an XX person of the same height."

It is partly this. But it is also partly looking at it from a collective grouping as well. ie. is there potential for all the female athletes to have been born with that advantage, is what I think I am trying to say. If a group is XY and there was never going to be functioning ovaries due to the body being coded to produce testes only, then as a collective group for that specific difference of sex disorder, there would be an argument to exclude.

Of course, to be clear, this is dependent on there being confirmed as lack of menstruation being an advantage to such a degree that it should be excluded. At the moment, it is not, and it may never be.

This^^

its all bullshit and needs to be dismissed as such.

Males should be banned where they have male advantage. It appears there is a DSD whereby someone with XY chromosomes (and thought to be/raised as female hence looking to enter the female category) does not have any male advantage. Examples of height and lack of menstruation have been cited as possible advantages. Women (XX) can also be tall and not menstruate. It is a question of pinning down what is the advantage, and is it a specifically male advantage. Are they going to have an unfair sporting advantage as against an XX person of the same height. Subject to better understanding the nature and variations of DSDs I think there may be instances where a person with a Y chromosome might compete in the female category. If there is always some material male-specific advantage present, then probably not.