Mixed sex boxing - Patricio Manuel (transman, boxing with biological men)

And would the trans identified female boxer not be at even more risk if she were on cross sex hormones?

I was watching earlier and the commentators referred to an event that had been introduced to promote 'gender parity' - the marathon race walk mixed relay. Men and women each complete two legs in the order male/female/male/female.

And that's FINE. Obviously, by 'gender parity' they mean 'sex parity' 🙄 but we'll let that pass. The point is that the IOC dimwits are patting themselves on the back for their 'inclusion' and are wilfully refusing to acknowledge that they can have events like this and nobody will complain; indeed, we'll all cheer for this kind of thing, which recognises that there are two sexes and there are differences between them but there are valid ways for them to compete.

What we object to is the lies and obfuscation and the denying of reality in the pretence of 'inclusion'. And that at a time when everyone is, rightly, outraged at an explosion of VAWG, the IOC is just fine and dandy with the spectacle of male-bodied people punching women in the face on a world stage and being feted for it.

Holy shit! What a joke.

It's interesting (rather than scary) in this situation.

All boxers know they risk being injured or injuring someone else, as do most sportspeople.

How would a male boxer feel if he severely or even fatally injured a transman opponent? Would the male boxer feel more guilty knowing he probably caused a more severe injury because his opponent was really a woman?

Is it fair?

Interesting - have they been penalized, excluded from their sport and suffered rape and death threats?

Wonder if she'd have beaten them if they were taking the same dose of testosterone.

There are reports (from sources entirely captured sympathetic to Manuel) that between 2016 and 2018 "he" spent months at a time traveling to amateur exhibitions, weighing in, only to watch "his" opponents refuse to get into the ring with "him".

Manuel has only ever had 4 fights - 3 wins, against boxers with mostly losses in their history, and this loss.

From which we can conclude that men do not wish to fight Manuel.

Edited for clarity.

This is precisely the kind of scenario I was musing on when I wrote my post earlier. And if your son forfeited the match, it would affect his own match record - which is where the fairness comes in.

It’s almost as if we have sex categories for a reason. Fancy that!

Would it be recorded as a loss on his record too?

And then if so he's cheated on that front too, and I assume there would be a knock on effect for opportunities like sponsorships etc as well?

The idea of hitting a woman, even in the name of sport, is horrifying to him.

Good lad, he's spot on!

And if he did forfeit out of common decency and knowledge that he could really hurt/kill someone, there would be no fairness for him in that scenario either. He'd have been cheated out of a bout just for being a good person and doing the right thing.

I have a son in his 20’s who is an amateur boxer (which I hate but that’s a whole other thread)

We were talking about this a couple of nights ago after everything that has happened with the 2 men boxing in the female category at the olympics.

He hasn’t come across a trans ‘man’ yet but he has said if he did he would refuse to box and forfeit the match.

The idea of hitting a woman, even in the name of sport, is horrifying to him.

Consent from both parties is a really important point but...

I'll be honest, even if the male and the trans identified female boxers all consented to mixed sex boxing in the male category I'd still be against it.

The danger to the female boxer is still present. No matter how she identifies she is still of the female sex.

Yes I know. Sorry.

I agree. I was being sarcastic really. I don't think my proposal will ever come to fruition!

Logically that would make sense but it will never happen because in reality all of this is just a male agenda and everyone know who everyone really is. Men get advantage and women don't - however any of them identify. It's just a massive pile of sexist bs. Same stuff in different clothes.
I expect I'll get deleted but I just don't care.

The IOC's policy of inclusion before anything else also raises other questions.

If it's fine for someone (male) to have physical advantage because of an F on their passport then how do they deal with inclusion the other way - when someone (female) has physical disadvantage but an M on their passport.

If inclusion at all costs is really the goal then shouldn't the IOC be taking steps to include female people with a male passport in men's sports?

For example they could do a mathematical equation to work out the degree of disadvantage then level the playing field by giving that person for example, a 2 lap head start in the longer distance men's running or a minute head start in swimming etc.

Does anyone think we will see this happening?

'They' in my post refers to any transman who has chosen to fight with men (real or hypothetical).

Whether other people also need to consent (natal men) is another matter.

...are (or is?) 'they'?

And here is one of the reasons why language matters. Who are (or us?) ' they'?

That's the point isn't it. Consent works both ways, both parties need to consent for it to be valid.

I think there is no problem for the transman to choose to compete with men. They have consented to do so.

I think it opens up ethical problems for different reasons. How do men feel fighting a biological woman (albeit with higher testosterone)?

🤣🤣🤣

yeah, I wouldn't pretend to have even a passing knowledge of Sr. Manuel's career, but this video here shows 'him', under the influence of more steroids than the combined entirety of the world wrestling roster, up against a by the looks of it untrained Vietnamese-American 'fighter' who's easily 5 inches shorter and a couple of stones lighter... it proves less than nothing.

Look at us man-hating harridans concerned that men should have the same autonomy to give informed consent that we demand for ourselves. How outrageous that we think similar behavioural standards should be applied to both sexes. Is this the way rights-hoarding dinosaurs behave?

I agree that it is completely unfair to force male boxers to fight a biological female regardless of gender ID and whatever else.
Consent matters both ways imo.