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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

olympic car crash

87 replies

lonelywater · 05/08/2024 16:35

I thought after the WPATH debacle that would blow the lid off, once and for all, gender woo having any further influence in medical matters. Do we think the IOC will simply try to style this out with "nothing to see here" or will radical change be a result? No idea myself as there seems to be still far too many nutters in positions of power.

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Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 23:44

LaeralSilverhand · 06/08/2024 23:13

I might have jumped the gun, was based on a bunch of comments under a guardian article. Apologies I should have sought some independent confirmation.

No worries. There is just so much misinformation around it is hard to know. The fact that mainstream media is ignoring facts to focus on emotional outpourings makes sorting facts from fiction tedious.

LaeralSilverhand · 06/08/2024 23:13

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 23:09

Confirmed? I thought the IOC said that decision was pending and under review. The WBO was rumored to be trying to get the gig.

I might have jumped the gun, was based on a bunch of comments under a guardian article. Apologies I should have sought some independent confirmation.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 23:09

LaeralSilverhand · 06/08/2024 22:11

Well, today I learned there will be no boxing at LA.

Confirmed? I thought the IOC said that decision was pending and under review. The WBO was rumored to be trying to get the gig.

Noname99 · 06/08/2024 22:56

posted too soon ……
however I think the fact that the two boxers didn’t just go and have a simple test that would have instantly ended any questions says volumes imo

Noname99 · 06/08/2024 22:55

@LaeralSilverhand
not decided yet

A good explainer on it I think and more even handed than most. As previous poster suggested it’s not as simple as IOC bad / IBA good

BBC link

A picture of Imane Khelif at Paris 2024

Boxer gender eligibility: Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting row explained

As a row over eligibility continues to overshadow boxing at the Olympics, we take a detailed look at the background to the dispute.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o

annejumps · 06/08/2024 22:30

LaeralSilverhand · 06/08/2024 22:11

Well, today I learned there will be no boxing at LA.

Oh really?

LaeralSilverhand · 06/08/2024 22:11

Well, today I learned there will be no boxing at LA.

EatMoreFibre · 06/08/2024 22:08

@Needanewname42 wikipedia tells me Florence Griffith Joyner died of a seizure due to a brain issue she'd had from birth. I remember being in awe of her when i was a child - this strong, stylish, charismatic woman achieving amazing athletic feats. Her 200m record is still unbeaten.

Needanewname42 · 06/08/2024 22:00

AuntyFunGal · 05/08/2024 18:40

Martina Navratilova had her T level tested as part of her tv program re trans sportspeople. Her level was comfortably within normal range (under 2nm per litre).

Once women go over 2, we exhibit a range of health problems. Hardly conducive to elite sports. Unless we’re talking about the other type of women’s bodies who aren’t affected by high T levels.

See former E German athletes & Flo-Jo, who died v young. Why would apparently healthy, super fit women drop dead of heart problems?

A total side not to the thread, I'm shocked to hear Flo-Jo with the nails 💅 died young 😟
That's sad, I will never know how she did anything with those nails.

There have been a fair few footballers who have died young from heart attacks, usually it's the result of heart defects that haven't been picked up, in medicals.
I believe most senior clubs check players for heart conditions now but that wasn't always the case.

Needanewname42 · 06/08/2024 21:48

1apenny2apenny · 05/08/2024 17:12

There was a graph on the other thread showing testosterone levels of men and women. I don't doubt that many women in these sports are at the higher end for T. That however is very different to men's levels.

Perhaps all the women should have a 'sex' test and testosterone test and publish their results. It's very telling that neither athlete will consent to the results being published nor to their own testing. We all know why.

I think it's very hard to comprehend how someone could be such a cheat in sport, especially at the Olympics. Do they not understand that this effectively negates any medal they win? But then I suppose it's also hard to comprehend how someone can think having an 'F' in your passport makes you a woman. I mean doesn't only cost a fiver to get that in the uk? Self id through the back door.

Do you think they actually care, as long as they go home with the prize money 💰?
And continue to get sponsorship?

DuesToTheDirt · 06/08/2024 20:46

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

If the IOC don't believe the IBA tests, it's quite simple - they could do their own. And presumably if they suspected drugs they'd be testing immediately. So it's pretty obvious why they won't do a chromosome test.

Truthlikeness · 06/08/2024 20:37

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

Excuse me while I miss the point :-) but GDPR fines can be in the tens of millions of Euros. They're not to be taken lightly!

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/08/2024 13:03

I came across an interesting article from an Olympic sports journalist and I’m posting it on relevant threads:

‘The International Olympic Committee, which is overseeing Paris 2024 boxing, opted to base eligibility on an athlete’s passport. IBA officials suggested Monday that missed the mark, noting that as of June 2023, more than a year before these Paris Games, the IOC knew about the New Delhi DQs…

3 Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”’

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

Paris 2024 women's boxing stirs so much emotion -- can facts take back the moment? | 3 Wire Sports

PARIS – If they had been running the tournament here at the Paris Games, International Boxing Assn. officials said Monday, the Algerian and Chinese Taipei fighters now in the medal rounds in women’s boxing, both figuring in a worldwide controversy, wou...

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/08/2024 11:20

@MarieDeGournay WADA do not do testing themselves, they are the overseeing body who approves laboratories to test samples. The IBA stating the labs were WADA certified was just to show these were serious laboratories not a back street operation. They never said WADA did the testing.

Snowypeaks · 06/08/2024 11:04

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:59

I know you aren’t penguin. But, I have long tortured my words to prevent deletions on Mn. It makes for very long sentences often as I strive for clarity. It will take me a long time to drop the habit because I also don’t have confidence that the mod policy that allows it in certain uses will remain either.

I cannot let the habit drop.

If I put as much effort into my posts and did as much research as you do, I think I would do the same. It would be awful to have all that work disappear in a puff of smoke.
I nearly always use sexed pronouns because I like to live dangerously! Woohoo!🏇⛷🏄

Justwrong68 · 06/08/2024 11:03

There's the uproar about other testing being reliably done in the athletes native country, rather than done by the IOC. So if all testing is done by IOC in future there should be a change, especially if cheek swabs can be reintroduced

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:59

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:50

Fair enough 😄 Don't worry, I am not the kindness police 😉

I know you aren’t penguin. But, I have long tortured my words to prevent deletions on Mn. It makes for very long sentences often as I strive for clarity. It will take me a long time to drop the habit because I also don’t have confidence that the mod policy that allows it in certain uses will remain either.

I cannot let the habit drop.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:53

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

In this, I believe the IVF/gynacologist who advised the ultimate decision and is the president of the European boxing federation. He said chromosome test.

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:50

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:26

Because every so often MN deletes posts for wrong pronouns. I choose to not lose my posts.

I believe I am very clear when I use ‘male’ and I don’t believe that many posters would complain that I am kind. I don’t give a fuck about being kind about discussing Semenya.

And this morning, I also am not going to get into another discussion about people telling me how to describe these male athletes. I feel I have fuck else for 4 or 5 days.

Fair enough 😄 Don't worry, I am not the kindness police 😉

MarieDeGournay · 06/08/2024 10:47

I agree that it is frustrating to see the same things over and over and over again after they've been refuted using reliable sources, UtopiaPlanitia.

The same thing has happened with the IBA - I've posted on a number of threads about their proven corruption, match-fixing, and the fact that they are so close to Russia that calling the 'Russian-backed' isn't far wrong, and they were financed by Gazprom. Even the IBA in its current form acknowledges that they were deeply corrupt, they commissioned their own review, the McLaren Report, in an attempt to 'turn a corner' [hmmmm.. ]
But the IBA good/IOC bad thing keeps cropping up..

There is doubt about the famous tests on Khelif and Lin; in the IBA news conference yesterday, one of them said they were testosterone tests, the other said they chromosome tests; who did the testing? it wasn't the WADA, who only test for drugs; is the IBA really so afraid of breaching the GDPR ..? These questions are valid. They are also irrelevant to the overall issue of men in women's sports, but are being used very effectively to shut down criticism of the IOC.
The IBA got one thing right: people with XY chromosomes are not eligible to participate in women's boxing, and they are to be praised for that. They raised doubts about the two boxers in question, they informed the IOC of their doubts, and that should have been enough to make the IOC take action before this situation developed.

But relying heavily on the credentials of the IBA and their testing regime is not a great idea, it weakens the argument, and it's frustrating when posters keep referring to the IBA as if they are the good guys.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 10:26

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:14

Why are you using "they"?

Because every so often MN deletes posts for wrong pronouns. I choose to not lose my posts.

I believe I am very clear when I use ‘male’ and I don’t believe that many posters would complain that I am kind. I don’t give a fuck about being kind about discussing Semenya.

And this morning, I also am not going to get into another discussion about people telling me how to describe these male athletes. I feel I have fuck else for 4 or 5 days.

Cailleach1 · 06/08/2024 10:21

And the shot putters have to practise away from others, so they don’t hit them. Segregation!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 06/08/2024 10:15

Drfosters · 06/08/2024 08:50

then there is no point is everyone arguing over is this a man or not, if the answer is actually irrelevant.

the argument should be over that top line of 1) what the point of the olympics are 2) what is the categorisation designed to achieve?

if inclusion is the point, then actually what is the point of any catergorisation at all. Why not just have 1 category for each sport? Do away with sex, weight, different swim strokes. Just have best at each sport

How divisive. They should just have one category, full stop. Chuck them all in a stadium together and see who wins sport.

Ignore the swimmers whinging that they're at a competitive disadvantage without water, and the hurdlers saying they feel 'unsafe' around the javelin throwers. Inclusion for all!

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 06/08/2024 10:14

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 06:42

And it is still discordant to see people refer to Semenya as ‘she’ when they even have admitted this.

Why are you using "they"?

BabaYagasHouse · 06/08/2024 09:01

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 07:16

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion at all costs is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

Thank you for this clear summary

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