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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Crowdjustice and Mumsnet 😁

132 replies

lcakethereforeIam · 05/08/2024 11:18

This is the 3rd time I've tried to create this thread. So apologies if it's a glitch and they suddenly all show up.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/05/jk-rowling-bankrolls-legal-fight-workplace-gender-police/

https://archive.ph/1Y0Ll help you over the garden wall

The headline imo is a bit clickbaity misleading but, hopefully, it'll help some non-gardeners find the allotments.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/08/2024 09:20

I agree, @Snowypeaks

Snowypeaks · 13/08/2024 02:59

Having seen examples of the complaints against AM, I feel even more strongly that there should be some consequences for a solicitor who takes on a case which is obviously without merit AND/OR some sort of filtering or initial assessment process before the respondent gets dragged in. This is harassment by legal process. AM is having to pay for a legal team just to get the case shut down, as it inevitably will be. That is not right.

Raquelos · 12/08/2024 23:37

This chap needs some help with his garden if anyone feels so inclined.

He was a co respondent in the case that Elspeth Wrigley had to face in the civil service that was ultimately dropped, but he has now been sued separately for the same thing. He isn't getting any support from his employer or his union and needs help to fund the legal fees.

As ever the process is the punishment and the aim is to make an example of those people courageous enough to stand up to the insistence on compliance with this ideology and to scare everyone else into keeping quiet. It shouldn't be a surprise that the people setting up the SEEN networks are being targeted like this. SEEN networks are making a real difference in offering a GC perspective on some of the crazy DEI policies in industry and that can't be allowed can it!

Link to the post on X here that will take you to the crowdfund page if you're interested in more detail (sorry I can't post the link directly), and a bit of a summary below.

Public servant sued for saying sex is binary
I am Andreas Mueller. I work for an arm’s length body to a government department. I am being sued for gender critical statements I made at work, and for my involvement in co-founding SEEN, a gender critical staff network.

Summary
A colleague is taking me, a government department and the Arms-Length Body (ALB) where I work to an Employment Tribunal. I am being sued for expressing gender critical beliefs at work. The claimant is also trying to shut down the gender critical SEEN (Sex Equality and Equity Network) staff network that I co-chair.

Why am I being sued?
The allegations in the case include my activity on an internal message board, such as:

  • Challenging a post that equated gender critical people with racists and homophobes
  • Discussing the meaning of safeguarding following a post minimising genuine concerns by women about single sex bathrooms.
  • ‘Liking’ some gender critical posts
  • Asking colleagues not to publicly speculate on the motives for a murder which was still under active police investigation at the time

Thanks 🙂🌻🌷🌺

x.com

https://x.com/STILLTish/status/1822950707684602083

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2024 21:27

They will probably not let it through, maybe you could repost without the link?

Raquelos · 12/08/2024 21:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2024 20:59

Did you post a link to a crowdfunding site @Raquelos? Direct links to crowdfunds are banned on MN, which predates the gender critical ones I think. People crowdfund for all sorts and it's easy for people to be taken in, as has happened here in the past, completely non trans related.

Damn, yes I did, I forgot they don't let you link to them. Thanks for the heads up. Will they just take the link out and let it through or will my post disappear altogether do you think?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2024 20:59

Did you post a link to a crowdfunding site @Raquelos? Direct links to crowdfunds are banned on MN, which predates the gender critical ones I think. People crowdfund for all sorts and it's easy for people to be taken in, as has happened here in the past, completely non trans related.

Raquelos · 12/08/2024 18:02

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Snowypeaks · 09/08/2024 12:52

They are the most precious of all.

lcakethereforeIam · 09/08/2024 12:52

NB, for me, is starting to read as shorthand for 'knob'!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 12:14

But I don't know for sure, though I imagine it's a distinct possibility.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 12:14

Yes, there are often NB people right at the centre of these cases.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 09/08/2024 11:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 11:42

I see they didn't give a shit about LP's lived experience as a same sex attracted lesbian though? Only the lived experience of the right thinkers.

They really need to report theyselves for homophobia.

This is very often the case. See the Bailey and Forstater tribunals where straight women both said that lesbians shouldn't exclude "trans women" from their dating pool, or should "call themselves something else" so as not to offend the males.

I wonder if the CCC complainant was NB, because (in other tribunals) they do have previous for doing that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 11:42

Sorry meant to quote you @Dumbledoreslemonsherbets

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 11:42

I see they didn't give a shit about LP's lived experience as a same sex attracted lesbian though? Only the lived experience of the right thinkers.

They really need to report theyselves for homophobia.

This is very often the case. See the Bailey and Forstater tribunals where straight women both said that lesbians shouldn't exclude "trans women" from their dating pool, or should "call themselves something else" so as not to offend the males.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 09/08/2024 10:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2024 17:27

Fabulous article by Jo Bartosch on the Lizzie Pitt case against Cambridgeshire County Council, which they backed out of at the eleventh hour (half an hour before the court met on the morning of the first day of the tribunal)

The details are as comic as they are cautionary. Documents prepared for the hearing reveal the dangers of allowing a clique of sanctimonious zealots to set policy for an entire organisation.

Following an acrimonious exchange during a workplace LGBTQ+ network meeting, Pitt was investigated by human resources. She was told that she had “demonstrated behaviours which were non-inclusive and perceived as transphobic” and was suspended from the network.

Accusations were quickly collected from attendees at the meeting. These included that Pitt and a more junior colleague she managed (who has since left CCC) had shared hateful views, including “that all pregnant people are women.” Pitt was also criticised for arguing “that using the pronoun ‘they’ to refer to one person was silly as it wasn’t grammatically correct.”

This latter point particularly upset the communications and marketing officer, who wrote in an email following the meeting:
I shut down and sat there silently, unable to respond to any of the rhetoric. I was shaking in disbelief, waiting for the meeting to finish – traumatised.

Meanwhile, the social worker, whose own views on his dog’s identity might be politely described as barking, questioned whether someone with Pitt’s opinions could be trusted to do her job, explaining:

I am wondering how she is advising in supervision regarding LGBTQIA+ service users. We know that in Social Care we work with vulnerable young people, families, and adults. What are the pieces of advice given to LGBTQIA+ service users? I am wondering if this symbolic violence is being extended in practices in supervision."

Eventually, the complaints reached the council CEO, Stephen Moir. He told the entire organisation in a recorded address that trans members of staff had been subjected to abuse, discrimination, and harassment. He added he would not tolerate such behaviour and that within CCC there was “no LGB without the T.”

It was a few months later, in November 2023, that Pitt launched the legal action.

The threat of a tribunal appeared not to deter CCC management. The service director for human resources wrote in her witness statement for the court that Pitt and her colleague who had spoken during the meeting had “been oppressive in their assertions that biological sex was scientifically fixed and there were two genders and therefore talk of other views was not credible.” She also complained that Pitt was not prepared to prioritise the “lived experience” of her colleagues and that she instead “focused on reciting facts and scientific data, including statistics about gender minorities.”
Sadly, the eleventh-hour settlement robbed the public of what would no doubt have been an entertaining trial, and one to which their taxes will have contributed. But the details from this tribunal-that-never-was deserve to be aired and the lessons must be learned.

thecritic.co.uk/the-curious-incident-of-the-dog-and-the-tribunal/

I see they didn't give a shit about LP's lived experience as a same sex attracted lesbian though? Only the lived experience of the right thinkers.

They really need to report theyselves for homophobia.

Pure McCarthyist denunciation. I see the CEO didn't bother to find out the true facts before branding a lesbian bigoted for caring about observable reality.

If I was a Cambridgeshire taxpayer I'd be fairly pissed off that a discussion about English grammar left someone paid with my taxes to be a communications officer, no less, shaking in disbelief, waiting for the meeting to finish – traumatised.

That seems as if it should disqualify a person from that particular job.

WickedSerious · 09/08/2024 10:20

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 09/08/2024 10:16

Lizzie Pitt is a monster! 😫

She: focused on reciting facts and scientific data, including statistics about gender minorities.”

Dear god! 😫

Not facts and scientific data! 😫

Anything but facts and scientific data!😫

The brutality is staggering.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 09/08/2024 10:16

WickedSerious · 08/08/2024 22:38

'Traumatised' by a comment about pronouns.

Someone needs to spend more time outdoors.

Lizzie Pitt is a monster! 😫

She: focused on reciting facts and scientific data, including statistics about gender minorities.”

Dear god! 😫

Not facts and scientific data! 😫

Anything but facts and scientific data!😫

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 10:13

do they just stay in and get the Uber Eats chap to leave vegan falafel on the doorstep?

As long as it isn't Israeli style falafel

timenowplease · 09/08/2024 10:11

TrainedByDinosaurs · 06/08/2024 19:45

Shows the power of Mumsnet FWR and GC women in general that she was able to raise so much.

I’m very happy with the results of my small donation in that £1 Million Grin

I donated twice and will donate again for an appeal if need be.

I'm happy do my bit. Whatever the outcome of the various cases I've carroted, win or not, there is a message being sent.

The state we'd be in now if all those brave women had not managed to get their cases funded is unthinkable.

And overall, we are winning. That feels good.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/08/2024 09:22

ChaChaChooey · 09/08/2024 01:32

Shaking in disbelief because someone agued for correct grammar?

😆

How do these people manage to exist in the big wide world? Or do they just stay in and get the Uber Eats chap to leave vegan falafel on the doorstep?

Edited

😂😂

Think there's a lot of "shaking in disbelief" amongst these flat earthers .

ChaChaChooey · 09/08/2024 01:32

Shaking in disbelief because someone agued for correct grammar?

😆

How do these people manage to exist in the big wide world? Or do they just stay in and get the Uber Eats chap to leave vegan falafel on the doorstep?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2024 00:07

"Shaking in disbelief"

WickedSerious · 08/08/2024 22:38

'Traumatised' by a comment about pronouns.

Someone needs to spend more time outdoors.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2024 17:27

Fabulous article by Jo Bartosch on the Lizzie Pitt case against Cambridgeshire County Council, which they backed out of at the eleventh hour (half an hour before the court met on the morning of the first day of the tribunal)

The details are as comic as they are cautionary. Documents prepared for the hearing reveal the dangers of allowing a clique of sanctimonious zealots to set policy for an entire organisation.

Following an acrimonious exchange during a workplace LGBTQ+ network meeting, Pitt was investigated by human resources. She was told that she had “demonstrated behaviours which were non-inclusive and perceived as transphobic” and was suspended from the network.

Accusations were quickly collected from attendees at the meeting. These included that Pitt and a more junior colleague she managed (who has since left CCC) had shared hateful views, including “that all pregnant people are women.” Pitt was also criticised for arguing “that using the pronoun ‘they’ to refer to one person was silly as it wasn’t grammatically correct.”

This latter point particularly upset the communications and marketing officer, who wrote in an email following the meeting:
I shut down and sat there silently, unable to respond to any of the rhetoric. I was shaking in disbelief, waiting for the meeting to finish – traumatised.

Meanwhile, the social worker, whose own views on his dog’s identity might be politely described as barking, questioned whether someone with Pitt’s opinions could be trusted to do her job, explaining:

I am wondering how she is advising in supervision regarding LGBTQIA+ service users. We know that in Social Care we work with vulnerable young people, families, and adults. What are the pieces of advice given to LGBTQIA+ service users? I am wondering if this symbolic violence is being extended in practices in supervision."

Eventually, the complaints reached the council CEO, Stephen Moir. He told the entire organisation in a recorded address that trans members of staff had been subjected to abuse, discrimination, and harassment. He added he would not tolerate such behaviour and that within CCC there was “no LGB without the T.”

It was a few months later, in November 2023, that Pitt launched the legal action.

The threat of a tribunal appeared not to deter CCC management. The service director for human resources wrote in her witness statement for the court that Pitt and her colleague who had spoken during the meeting had “been oppressive in their assertions that biological sex was scientifically fixed and there were two genders and therefore talk of other views was not credible.” She also complained that Pitt was not prepared to prioritise the “lived experience” of her colleagues and that she instead “focused on reciting facts and scientific data, including statistics about gender minorities.”
Sadly, the eleventh-hour settlement robbed the public of what would no doubt have been an entertaining trial, and one to which their taxes will have contributed. But the details from this tribunal-that-never-was deserve to be aired and the lessons must be learned.

thecritic.co.uk/the-curious-incident-of-the-dog-and-the-tribunal/

WickedSerious · 07/08/2024 11:05

TheRozzers · 07/08/2024 08:52

As fun as it would be to see Naomi Campbell in full swing in a GC tribunal, Naomi Cunningham already has these cases covered. 😉

Naomi Campbell Grin

I imagine she'd be quite forceful.

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