Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

Exactly. Males with DSDs are over represented in womens sports.

In any scenario, something has to be done to protect those that are under represented (I mean, isn't that the whole left-wing stance??). ie those with XX chromosomes.

"Other DSDs are far more complicated and people do not fall into simple male/female categories. Sex is often determined based on analysis of external sexual characteristics/hormones/genetics/personal identity but it is not straightforward."

Sex is nearly always determined based on observation at birth and this method works for over 99% of the population (in the uk at least).

The species is designed to be binary when it comes to sex, and male and female difference is simple and straight forward.

It is DSDs that can be complex and not straight forward, not the binary sex classification. The existence of DSDs reflects 'disorder' in development. Something has gone wrong. The person has not developed in line with the design of the species.

It is batshit crazy to suggest the male/female binary classification across all sexually reproducing species is wrong because some develop a-typically.

Humans are a sighted species, some are born blind- this is an impediment. The same can be said for being a bi-pedal species, a hearing species etc.

The movement to 'normalise' difference (disability, deformity) came about to stop stigma and discrimination. People who have differences, deformities, disabilities should not be socially 'othered', considered 'lesser' or denied the same rights as others. However, they are 'abnormal' when it comes to development. The notion that ideas about typical and healthy development should be re-written to suggest that these differences don't reflect an error in development is ridiculous.

How people feel about their differences/disorders/disabilities is influenced by social factors intersecting with biological features. Whatever narratives are given/believed, the material reality will remain unchanged.

@AltitudeCheck but everyone is either male or female. Even those with a DSD will be, it's factually correct to state that some DSDs are only found in men, others are only found in women. If a person has internal testes and no ovaries, external genitalia that don't look typically male, then they are still male. There really is no spectrum. If you actually look into this there have been no recorded cases of a person having both male and female sexual organs with both sets working. As I said on another thread, I know a young man with a DSD who is constantly trying to inform people that he isn't female. He is a male with a DSD. It causes him enormous distress.

In the vast majority of cases it is both - because chromosomes determine genitalia; but in a tiny number of cases ( DSDs) it comes down to the chromosomes. Chromosomes and genetics are the hard drive - the genitals and sexual characteristics the soft ware.

Here are the CAIS and 46XY 5ARD flow charts as these have been mentioned specifically.

Here is the link for all the flow charts and they include both normal male and female development and DSDs.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

It's not the same as a normal vagina though. It's blind ending and often shorter.

While it excludes those who don’t produce gametes at all, that’s obviously not incorrect. So it stands that you can absolutely be male and have a vagina which is something I’ve read many times on here isn’t possible.

Not really, genetic testing is pretty straightforward

Using textbook footnotes about rare variations in sexual development as a gotcha to "prove" that entitled middle aged men who decide to start wearing lipstick and swishy skirts to work always been women or that strapping blokes like Caster Semenya should be in women's sports is a bit desperate, isn't it?

I didn't say they were men and CAIS is totally irrelevant to the sports debate but they are still not female whether you think that fact is 'unkind' or not.

@Ingenieur I agree but there is a lot of confusion among the public, as evidenced frequently on Mumsnet!

I didn't even do biology o level so I can't really give information

This is one paper i looked at which seemed readable !

rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/ovotesticular-disorder-of-sex-development/

@KielderWater Of course it is true that genetics determines endocrine environment and physiology, the difficulty is that that often the different components don't 'match'

@greenbirds

For a minority of people this is just not true and conflating DSDs with transgender issues is very unhelpful.

The only people conflating DSDs with trangender identities is the trans rights advocacy movement. They need to take responsibility for the confusion and unkindness.

Lots of things are difficult. So?

Look, it's really disingenuous to claim that XY 5 ARD people like Caster and these two boxers don't know they are male. When they get to puberty they go through male puberty. Their genitalia will virilise (get bigger!) and they will grow body and facial hair. Their jaws and brow bones will develop. They won't get breasts or menstruate. It's impossible for people not to be aware that they are not developing as a woman. All these athletes are aware they are XY well before they start competing.

This is a genuine question because I'm confused. What is someone with XY chromosomes and a sex disorder who has a vagina and uterus but no eggs? If everyone with XY is a man what does it mean if those people get IVF and get pregnant? It's a pregnant man?

I too am against NHS policies referring to "people with uteruses" etc yet some people with XY chromosomes do have wombs. It's all giving me a headache and would really appreciate someone explaining like I'm 5.

With CAIS I think it depends on other factors - how they develop and respond to specific hormones

Some do have a male advantage

Many Others don't

The rarest dsd - about 500 people - they can make eggs and sperm potentially ( although these people tend to be infertile )

Hi, could you give us some more information on this condition please? thank you 😊

@KielderWater It can be extremely difficult to determine whether some people with DSDs are male or female as they often have both male and female characteristics. CAIS is one of the simpler examples.

THIS! The people pretending we're all terribly unkind for pointing out this unfairness, noticeably, direct all their ' be kindness' to the male athletes with DSDs - and never towards the women being cheated out of once-in-a-lifetime opportunities where differences in biology matter.

Why is such a rare condition over represented in elite WOMENS sports? It's not by accident.

genetics is all that matters whereas the reality is that it is a combination of genetics, endocrinology and physiology.

endocrinology and physiology is a result of genetics

If they have found 500 people with such complex messed up biology it can clearly happen - and it's usually possible to work out what side is favoured as far as I can tell - although again this may not be simple

It doesn't change the issue

There may be a small fraction of the population for whom some kind of special analysis needs to be done to work out if they have the male advantage

It's rare , it can be very distressing for the people involved but it is necessary

And unfortunately such people may reach high levels of sport before anyone asks the questions

It seems intrusive

But the more that is known , the more these childen will be sought after and encouraged to compete unless female sport is protected

@PeriIsKickingMyButt It is unkind. The only thing that makes women with CAIS male is the XY genotype. It is often a huge shock for people to discover aged 16/17 that they are genetically male when they 'look like women's and have spent their whole lives as girls and young women and make the assumptions that go with that (e.g. ability to have children in the future). As I said, they are only men if you think genetics is all that matters whereas the reality is that it is a combination of genetics, endocrinology and physiology. They have no advantage in sports etc as they can't respond to testosterone. And honestly, you would have no idea if you met someone with CAIS.

I think it's hard for many people to get their head round the idea that sex is not as a simple as they always thought. For a minority of people this is just not true and conflating DSDs with transgender issues is very unhelpful.