Good grief. Now they’re saying that not all xx are female and not all xy are male. And that xy ‘generally' means male.

Plus suppressing testosterone does not remove male advantage in terms or reach, heart and lunch capacity, muscle twitch speed etc.

@ScrollingLeaves

This is what the TRAs have done to poor people with DSDs - we will now have to go down to this level of detail in all cases when an XY individual tries to compete in women's sports.

I do not think it is beyond the wit of man to devise a testing regime that would protect candidates' privacy. In any case most people know if they have a relevant DSD, so the existence of unambiguous guidelines would stop them putting themselves up in the first place (or being put up by an unscrupulous promoter).

I think " now they're saying " has become very Trumpian language. It's best to name sources.

I remember when I visited Georgia, going up into the mountains and being told the highest peak I could see was "the tallest peak in Europe."
I was surprised, because up until then I'd always been taught that the tallest peak in Europe was Mont Blanc.
By some definitions it is, by others it's Mt Elbrus in the caucasus.
This doesn't mean that K2 might actually be the tallest peak in Europe.

Swyer syndrome
1 in 80,000 births
or 1 in 20,000

Rare
Would not have gone through male puberty, would not look like a man, would not have high testosterone. So not like the two boxers.

AFFECTED POPULATIONS
Swyer syndrome affects girls who have an XY chromosomal makeup, no ovaries, but functional female organs including the uterus, fallopian tubes and vagina. The exact incidence is unknown. One estimate placed the incidence at 1 in 80,000 births. Another estimate placed the incidence of Swyer syndrome (complete gonadal dysgenesis) and partial gonadal dysgenesis combined at 1 in 20,000 births. Genital anomalies in general occur in approximately 1 in 4,500 births.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

kind of?

In theory DSD track and field athletes can but have to reduce T to 2.5 n/mol for at least 6 months.

Semenya tried and performance went through the floor. Seems to be the same for Mboma that took silver in the 200m at Rio but couldn’t qualify for Paris under the new regulations.

I think it would be much fairer to follow World Swimming’s lead which says nobody that’s been through male puberty can compete in women’s events - I’m uncomfortable about athletes taking drugs to suppress T.

worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6A%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520Eligibility%2520Regulations%2520for%2520the%2520Female%2520Classification%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520effective%252031%2520March%25202023

And is there evidence that this person has a DSD? Or could they just be a plain old man?

thank you @Shortshriftandlethal

Sorry I should have specified - this is for Athletics.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they can.

They would no longer meet the allowable testerone levels for a female athlete.

That is so upsetting. Can this kind of DSD male still enter races with women in the Olympics, do you know?

This very useful chart and comments were posted yesterday by @AIstolemylunch
I hope they won’t mind me re posting them.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

Slide 12 shows 5ARD - what Caster Semenya and likely these boxers have - ends up with a functional male that can process testsoterone and goes through a male puberty - shouldn't be in women's sports.

Slide 21 shows Sywer Syndrome - genetically male but end up as non fertile woman - could conceivably be allowed in women's sports but other health problems are unlikely to favour getting to elite level.

This is what the TRAs have done to poor people with DSDs - we will now have to go down to this level of detail in all cases when an XY individual tries to compete in women's sports. You can see why it will end up no XY at all but I think that is the only way. The XY individuals who should be treated as women - those with CAIS or Sywers - are unlikley to be at elite sporting level anyway due to other concomitant health conditions. So if it only excludes the 5ARD type cases where they only have ambiguous genitalia but are functionally male and go through male puberty then that is what is needed. No XY individuals that have gon ethorugh male puberty in womens sports certainly.

Boxing is a contact sport. The wrongness is more obvious. Also we've had years of misogynistic, Orwellian shite by now.

Lynsey Sharp interview - heartbreaking.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4JeLO8RCtoQ

There was a full on onslaught of silencing female athletes.

At the time I think there was plausible deniability, and alternatively accusations of racism/femininity policing, as with Semenya.

They care about $$$$

I think more women are now getting chromosome tests early in their pregnancy, so inevitably in some of those cases any anomalies at birth will be spotted.

It has been rumoured that coaches are actively looking for people with DSDs.

I asked this earlier . What basis is there for this?

Someone pointed me to Sharon Davies' book which talks about this apparently. Otherwise it still is rumour.

They've as good as admitted this though. Testing the waters I think.

It has been rumoured that coaches are actively looking for people with DSDs.

raised as a girl

How is whether someone has been subject to sexist misogynistic upbringing by a patriarchal society relevant to sport? If a girl had been raised in line with western masculine stereotypes despite knowing she was a girl should she take part in men’s sports?

This is the next goalpost. Documented or assumed XY DSDs will gradually fade from the picture and "anybody could" be XY but also female. Eventually we won't even hear "But so and so was raised female" like we are now, as if that made someone female.

Yep, SRY gene can be tested for - as I said earlier there needs to be a rule that addresses both phenotype and karotype.

There seems no be some generally confusion.

Karyotype is the arrangement of Chromosomes not the specific genes that make up the chromosome. karyotyping is relatively easy and cheap. It would be a useful screening tool for athletes for this reason. In order to assess genes you look at genotype, this is more complicated and expensive (in terms of equipment rather than for the athlete). Assessing genotype could be used to identify the presence of absence of the SRY gene and other sex-linked genes where the karyotyping suggests an anomaly. The genes that impact the sex developmental pathway are pretty well known. In terms of phenotype (how genes are expressed), the main thing that should be assessed is testosterone and this is tested for anyway for doping.