Where to find reputable sources re boxing controversy

This. It honestly feels like wilful ignorance at this point. Some of them just clearly don’t want to understand the science on this / haven’t read the excellent explanations from specialists in DSDs and human biology.

Jeez. “XY females”, “XX males”. The desperate clinging on to vanishingly rare diagnoses is ridiculous.

im not being the word police, and im not talking at all about feelings
Im just saying that not everyone with XY does actually undergo male puberty, there are many different iterations of XY females.
We are also ignoring XX males here who typically have normal testosterone levels for a male puberty (although it is impaired in adulthood)
I just dont agree that our labels of male and female are completely beholden to genotype for a very very small group of people

ive made no argument for participation in sport at all

You talk about data and being scientific and then it’s straight to being the word police because feelings matter most of all.

So let’s say someone finds out at 18 that they have XY chromosomes and have been through male puberty with all the physical advantages that entails. And their path forward is to spend the next 6 years training for a sport which involves punching women in the head. And yet the thing we all have to be most concerned about is their feelings? They can call themselves whatever they want, dress and behave however they please but their biological reality demands that they play combat sport with men not women.

The media want to stoke up conflict, to do this they need to withhold facts. It’s the same with most issues, Brexit being an example. The aim of the exercise is to stir up engagement not provide information

i would say that i have seen calm logical reasoning on both sides, and a fair bit of fury and insults on both sides
I think im on a different "side" of the argument to you, but that doesnt mean im right and youre wrong. Im not slinging insults and fury. Im also someone with a science background and we're looking at the same data and interpreting it differently.
I'd also say that repeatedly saying that women who have only found out their sex chromosome genotype at (on average) 18 years old are "men" with no understanding of the many ways that this genotype can affect development is pretty insulting.

The ‘women’s’ 800m final in Rio in 2016 showed us what the future would look like if we allowed men with DSDs to compete in women’s events. I remember questioning it at the time but the expectation was that we should all just go along with it because if you didn’t you were cruel and nasty.

What I’ve seen is on one side calm, logical, scientific reasoning and on the other it’s fury, hysteria and insults. I follow a netball discussion group on X and the organiser has blocked anyone who has so much as raised a question about whether the situation is fair or safe for women athletes. They won’t allow debate or discussion and if you won’t fall into line you’re out. They hide behind the line of boxing is bad too so that if a woman is badly injured they can blame the sport instead of their poster person.

The only trans athlete competing in boxing at the olympics is a trans man.
There are no men competing in female categories
I think its very important that we use correct information here, and the OP is asking for information about what XY female can mean; it doesnt always equate to a male puberty, it doesnt always mean elevated male hormones.
There are XY females who have more muscle mass due to their Y chromosome, but it isnt a universal rule.
I think trying to understand the complex dynamics of DSD is important, because otherwise we see sweeping statements that just arent true

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

Particularly when competing involves a man punching a woman in the face to try and knock her out or score points with a clean hit.

Could you perhaps follow some popular science/genetics accounts? they tend to respond to whats in the news with useful summaries of the science (which i find frustratingly lacking)
New Scientist? Scientific American? Adam Rutherford from UCL often shares interesting genetics articles from his lab (although he has a focus on race rather than sex)

I'm sorry but the accusations of hate, cruelty, vitriol, etc. seem disingenuous to me and just another form of "be kind." No questions, no debate, etc. A person who's chosen to be in the public eye in sports is going to get questions. I just don't feel sorry for male athletes who've decided to try their luck against the "easy pickings" of female competitors when there's money at stake.

I think every day about how much hate and cruelty and disempowerment and marginalisation and abuse and dehumanisation happens to female people every day all over the world and it breaks my fucking heart.

I simply do not have enough left to care very much about a boy who had a sad and traumatic discovery about his biological sex a long time ago and now knowingly enters female-only sports because he, his trainers and his government believe him getting his chance to win is more important than that the less interestign female people should have sports classes in which they can compete that are suitable for their physical capabilities.

Yeah, Khelif and his supporters hate women.

It's shocking how brazen it is.

This is an actual person you are talking about

You talk about them in the same way you do any male

Maybe just think about human beings, it's very sad how much hate and cruelty there is

Their biology is their business

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

👏👏👏👏

That's pretty much the full gender debate in a nutshell.

There are links after link to reputable sources on every thread on the subject here.
The most comprehensive in terms of adressing the bullshit is from the woman who blew this up in the first place
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owne

I have to say its frustrating when people seem not to read the threads so the same issues keep coming up.
We have been doing it for years now and DSDs have been adressed so many times since 2018.

If they have a DSD you have no idea what puberty they went through.

We have a very good idea, knowing as we do that Khelif has XY chromosomes there are limited DSDs he can have, and it ain't Swyer Syndrome therefore he's a man who underwent male puberty.

Their biology is their business

It is until it affects other people, such as those he is competing against.

They aren't trans, we keep saying DSDs aren't relevant to the debate so maybe we should stick to that line in this case.

Nobody here is talking about trans. Misrepresent a GC position all you like, but it's entirely consistent with gender criticism to not want a man competing in women's sports, even if he really really wants to beat up women.

I'm sure I read that Caster was allowed to play outside as a boy would while the girls of the family had to do housework.

Their biology is the business of the women they're competing against, sorry.

They are not claiming trans identities, so that debate seems to be moot to begin with.

If they have a DSD you have no idea what puberty they went through.

I feel the same way about this I did about Semenya. This is a human who has thought they were female for a big chunk of their life. We have no idea what their medical history is and nor do we need to know - their biology is their business.

Sports need to bring back proper sex verification but in the meantime this is a human being and I don't think they deserve this vitriol. They aren't trans, we keep saying DSDs aren't relevant to the debate so maybe we should stick to that line in this case.

This is an interesting article about someone who was an Olympic athlete who had to cope with this condition, back in the bad old days and worth a read if you are interested. There was probably a thread on it here from when it was published.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

Khelif alongside a female boxer in Algeria, quite different, funny that.

It is - probably - a very sad case

But note that it's feminists getting the blame for that too, which is ludicrous.

Had the right, fair testing process been followed then these boxers wouldn't have had their lives scrutinised in this way. Female athletes never wanted sex testing dropped.

But it turns out women don't really have the right to fair sport competition, in the way men do. What we are allowed is granted by men/ male institutions and can be take it away at any point, just as the IOC has done.

It is SO telling that the people online currently scolding feminists are the same that scold us for not wishing to include males with trans identities in sports, changing rooms, etc, even though this case has bugger all to do with trans. These people don't care about discovering actual facts, they just spot another situation they can use to attack and control the women that dare step out of line.

Also just to add, I don’t believe that these boxers only found out about their maleness last year when they were sex tested. As many PPs have said across many threads, the most likely DSD they have is 5ARD which is usually detected at puberty when no female puberty happens and male puberty happens instead. Many people then go on to live as male from there in accordance with their biology.

My post above is aimed at people who disagree with that, even if we take the absolute most charitable view of these boxers, and accept they didn’t know or they can’t accept it because it’s too distressing, we still have to draw a line and say ‘sorry, no’ to them joining in in women’s sport.

I'm sorry but this is not a woman or a person who thinks they are female

I think women are born and people can change as biology rules, but this case is different and that is why I am think it is difficult and more nuanced.

What do you mean by this?

I agree that it must be tough finding out your body is different to what you thought. I am sympathetic to people with DSDs and we should have compassion for that difficult experience in their lives.

But the fact is that men with DSDs are just that…men. However sad the circumstances, they shouldn’t get a pass into women’s sport. Even more so when women’s safety is at stake. We have to draw clear lines for sport in particular, because biology is the be all and end all in sport.