Can a XX woman go through male puberty?

I was replying to the poster who said she always thought she was a woman but might need to take a test.

My point was that if she has already gone through normal female puberty, we can be pretty certain that she is female regardless of any rare genetic quirks that she may or may not have but most likely doesn't if everything has progressed as expected.

I'm going to quote Helleofabore's regular post on this, since she's not in this thread at the moment. It's very informative. She has to repost this often:

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

and

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

again, its very very rare but some XY females do experience menstruation

Did you go through puberty and get your periods? If so then you don't need to take any kind of test.

This is also not always true, there can be overlap of testosterone levels of men and women. Especially if they have reduced testosterone sensitivity because the body can upregulate the levels of this (same as other hormones)

Anyone here confidently saying "no" has a confidence that is misplaced

Yes, XX Males do exist, and it is usually due to migration of the SRY gene from the Y to the X chromosome, it can be found in 1/20,000 male births by some estimates.

Does he list those actual cases because I doubt they exist.

I've never had a chromosome test. So I might be a man then. I always thought I was a woman.

Oh give over. We're talking about whether it's fair for males with DSDs (or females who go through male puberty if there is such a thing as per OP's question) to compete in elite female sport, not whether they should be allowed to exist.

This isn’t a thread about multiple sexes or genders. It’s about DSDs, which occur in all mammals (don’t know about birds but as birds don’t have X or Y chromosomes it’s not really relevant).

Ask a farmer how many sexes of cow or sheep or chicken or goat there are

Mammalian biology is pretty binary

Males with DSDs are over represented in women's sports. I think that says it all really. Level the playing field = give them their own category

Women with DSDs are unlikely to make it far in competitive sports. The health implications aren’t great, and of course reduces your competitiveness.
Men with some DSDs can be pretty healthy, even if not up to the standard of elite male athletes. Compared to female athletes though, men with certain DSDs are extremely competitive.

@quixote9 You should read the full thread as this has been addressed. Individuals with de La Chapelle syndrome are 46,XX but with male phenotype, usually normal male genitalia and have undergone male-type puberty. The condition is often only identified when a couple are investigated for fertility problems.

It’s not relevant to sport of course.

In a word: No.

In more words: The hormonal cascade that leads to the development of testes and the androgen sensitivity factor that makes cells respond much more to testosterone are both some of the (very few) genes on the Y chromosome. Without a Y, not enough testosterone made to produce and sustain male puberty.

The adrenal glands produce some testosterone, and disorders can lead to overproduction (eg Cushing's Syndrome), but

1. not on the TIMING, duration, and scale needed for male puberty

and

2. the cells throughout the body don't have the androgen sensitivity to respond to the testosterone in a way that produces male puberty.

Have you seen this brilliant and hugely informative thread?
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133426-the-ioc-we-dont-want-a-return-to-the-bad-old-days-of-sex-testing

I didn't say that, did I?
her body will start to produce more testosterone than is normal for females.

"Higher than normal" isn't male levels.

Edited for clarity

If she develops certain medical conditions like PCOS, she may grow more facial hair than other women because her body will start to produce more testosterone than is normal for females.

Women with PCOS do not have anywhere near male levels of testosterone.

Thank you.

Me too, plenty of snake hipped women around!

Where the source for the xy chromosomes in the boxer.m? Been having this chat with my DH and couldn’t find definitive proof of this at all.

The details have started leaking out to the media: www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

I agree with the pp who said this is actually everyone's business, otherwise how are opponents meant to give informed consent to the match?

Where the source for the xy chromosomes in the boxer.m? Been having this chat with my DH and couldn’t find definitive proof of this at all.

@DenmarkStreet

In answer to your question, no. A woman/girl cannot go through male puberty.

Collins online dictionary defines puberty as:
the period at the beginning of adolescence when the sex glands become functional and the secondary sexual characteristics emerge.

She's female so she doesn't have male sex glands anyway.

Secondary sexual characteristics are defined as:
any of various features distinguishing individuals of different sex but not directly concerned in reproduction.

If she develops certain medical conditions like PCOS, she may grow more facial hair than other women because her body will start to produce more testosterone than is normal for females.

It's interesting to see how many men who start to identify as women later in life claim to be intersex. And yet the gender clinics stopped testing for DSDs years ago because they found no correlation between DSDs and gender confusion.

It's almost like some men get off on identifying as intersex.

Jessica Yaniv springs to mind.

Congenital reproductive disorders is a term that is gaining popularity. We also need to be careful as the term ‘intersex’ has been hijacked by QWERTY activists with many self identifying as being intersex. You just need to look on TikTok to see the number of activists making up totally fictitious conditions or claiming conditions they patently do not have. These individuals are taking over many of the support organisations.