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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

185 replies

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 15:07

Just thought I'd share this in it's own thread in case it gets lost in the other one.

It's still not right what's happened but I'm pleased to see this, the IBA know she was cheated!

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif | The Independent

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif

The Italian pulled out in the first round against the Algerian amid a gender row at Paris 2024

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/olympics-angela-carini-imane-khelif-boxing-b2590515.html

OP posts:
californiaisdreaming · 03/08/2024 16:28

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 03/08/2024 16:00

has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won

This alone is bullshit. 42 wins out of 51 bouts.

And either way, even if they'd lost 100% of their fights against women it does not make them female.

A lack of Y chromosomes is what does that.

Being bad at a particular sport should not be what makes someone eligible to fight in the women's category.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 16:27

justtoohotrightnow · 03/08/2024 16:16

I'm Italian, in Italy right now and have a bubble of left wing friends whom I have argued with about this.
I'm quite a left-winger, normally one who can't see the "trans danger" highlighted on this board, and find the MN feminism a bit extreme, BUT this case just doesn't sound right to me.

Angela Carini has now become here a symbol of the right wing government for both sides. This exploitation also irritates me.

Still don't know what to think but inwardly pleased by this news.

I know it's silly of me but I wish we could leave political sides out of it. For me it's about reality, telling the truth and protecting females.

Be kind has been leveraged against us (everyone but particularly women), and as predicted the goalposts just keep shifting don't they?

The path was predictable and now males can self ID into being able to physically beat up women as a sport, cheered on by the unthinking masses.

Slow claps all round to everyone who allowed this to happen.

We can be compassionate people and still avoid throwing safeguarding completely out the window can't we? I mean we can put people on the moon and do other incredible things that used to be considered science fiction these days, but apparently we collectively became so open minded our brains fell out.

May I also ask what about MN feminism is extreme to you? Genuinely curious.

I haven't seen anyone here suggesting violence of any kind (which I consider extreme), what I do see is women who have had a lot of experience and knowledge of male violence who advocate strongly for women and children - usually with a well behaved protest or strong campaign of letter writing.

We wish to hold the lines and boundaries of safeguarding for women and children - a reasonable boundary at that.

What I see from the TRA/MRA side, on the other hand, is frankly terrifying and is what I would consider extreme.

OP posts:
OvaHere · 03/08/2024 16:26

The losses can be explained by the talent of the very best female boxers.

Males who compete in female sport wouldn't cut it in the male competition because they're just not talented enough to make the cut. If they could it's guaranteed they'd be over there where the money and glory is 10 x more than in female sport.

Female sport is treated like a consolation prize for them but brute strength will only take you so far in some events and against some competitors. A small number of women will be so talented in their field they can compensate for his strength by outmanoeuvring him in other ways.

However that doesn't take away from all the women these men do harm and the places, medals, prize money etc. they also take along the way.

They should not ever be in the female competition regardless of a few losses.

bundevac · 03/08/2024 16:23

ChishiyaBat · 03/08/2024 16:19

Yes that's the one, I don't know how to link the others or I would.

Questions are good for sure. It is a sorry mess, it's a bad week for women. And I am thankful for all the posters who take the time to explain things and share their expertise.

karina ibragimova is another. fun fact, she beat the taiwanese boxer also: https://el.kz/en/karina-ibragimova-to-represent-kazakhstan-in-world-boxing-championships-finals_68917/

Karina Ibragimova to represent Kazakhstan in World Boxing Championships finals

Karina Ibragimova to represent Kazakhstan in World Boxing Championships finals - el.kz

Karina Ibragimova to represent Kazakhstan in World Boxing Championships finals. Просмотров - 1301. The most up-to-date information about the latest events in the world - informational and educational website - Еl.kz

https://el.kz/en/karina-ibragimova-to-represent-kazakhstan-in-world-boxing-championships-finals_68917

Rummly · 03/08/2024 16:23

FuzzyPuffling · 03/08/2024 16:22

Bollocks.

I think that is indeed the issue.

FuzzyPuffling · 03/08/2024 16:22

OhDoStoppit · 03/08/2024 15:48

She wasn't 'cheated' she was not as good as her competitor, whether by training or luck of size.

Khelif was born a woman, has female body parts and has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won.

This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous.

A woman being bigger than another woman means she's 'cheating'?? Talk about a bunch of snowflakes. Must we also cancel Serena Williams for being too powerful? Simone Biles because her petite size helps her in her sport?? Any woman with PCOS who has higher testosterone levels???

I absolutely agree that TRANSwomen should not be competing against women, but this is not what this was.

Bollocks.

ChishiyaBat · 03/08/2024 16:22

justtoohotrightnow · 03/08/2024 16:16

I'm Italian, in Italy right now and have a bubble of left wing friends whom I have argued with about this.
I'm quite a left-winger, normally one who can't see the "trans danger" highlighted on this board, and find the MN feminism a bit extreme, BUT this case just doesn't sound right to me.

Angela Carini has now become here a symbol of the right wing government for both sides. This exploitation also irritates me.

Still don't know what to think but inwardly pleased by this news.

Thanks for sharing your view. What is being said in Italy? Do you mind if I ask you, do you think Angela was forced to apologise?

ChishiyaBat · 03/08/2024 16:19

Yes that's the one, I don't know how to link the others or I would.

Questions are good for sure. It is a sorry mess, it's a bad week for women. And I am thankful for all the posters who take the time to explain things and share their expertise.

bundevac · 03/08/2024 16:19

Rummly · 03/08/2024 16:11

All the losses are probably against that other man who’s boxing as a woman.

amy broadhurst is one of them. no idea how to check trans thing.

justtoohotrightnow · 03/08/2024 16:16

I'm Italian, in Italy right now and have a bubble of left wing friends whom I have argued with about this.
I'm quite a left-winger, normally one who can't see the "trans danger" highlighted on this board, and find the MN feminism a bit extreme, BUT this case just doesn't sound right to me.

Angela Carini has now become here a symbol of the right wing government for both sides. This exploitation also irritates me.

Still don't know what to think but inwardly pleased by this news.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 16:15

ChishiyaBat · 03/08/2024 16:08

@stormstormystormstorm there are multiple threads about it, one is trending right now.

@stormstormystormstorm sorry! I realise my reply might have sounded quite rude, I'm not angry at you! Questions are absolutely fine in my book, you are just seeking to learn more.

This thread is the one @ChishiyaBat means, I think IIRC it has all the links I was on about in the first page? Good thread with very knowledgeable posters who are far more articulate than I am about this whole sorry business right now.

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men? *”Two athletes competing at...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

OP posts:
Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 16:11

stormstormystormstorm · 03/08/2024 16:05

Am genuinely not being inflammatory, but DH and I just had the same discussion, where he told me that she was always female. I had not understood this or heard it from anyone else, other than DH and the above poster.

Where can I find the information to say that this is due to an DSD and male puberty ?

See all the threads already discussing this for links (which I apologise I haven't got handy for you) to the IBA statement which makes it as clear as they are able without releasing confidential medical records that Kelif failed the sex testing for eligibility in the female category.

Put simply they tested him to see if he was male or female and he is male. The criteria for the IBA female boxing is that you have to be female XX. This male bodied person is not a female.

He and Yu-ting could easily have appealed with the independent ruling body over their exclusion due to the sex testing and did not. They both know they are male.

The IOC for the Olympics only requires competitors to have "female" on their passport, a thing that is very easy to have changed because it's just a bit of paperwork and gender ideology has paved the way for self ID.

OP posts:
StealthSpinach · 03/08/2024 16:11

OhDoStoppit · 03/08/2024 15:48

She wasn't 'cheated' she was not as good as her competitor, whether by training or luck of size.

Khelif was born a woman, has female body parts and has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won.

This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous.

A woman being bigger than another woman means she's 'cheating'?? Talk about a bunch of snowflakes. Must we also cancel Serena Williams for being too powerful? Simone Biles because her petite size helps her in her sport?? Any woman with PCOS who has higher testosterone levels???

I absolutely agree that TRANSwomen should not be competing against women, but this is not what this was.

As you are so very knowledgeable about the boxer’s genitals, birth details and genetic status, I think it is incumbent upon you to immediately contact the IOC.

Those silly people at the IOC have announced that Khelif is not transgender, but has a DSD (Difference of Sexual Development) and is XY (ie MALE). How “intersexphobic” of them!

I’m sure you’ll take comfort in the fact that, according to the IOC, the only verification of whether an athlete is a woman is via whatever marker is on their passport and that it doesn’t matter at all if the boxer is XY, has sky high testosterone levels and is competing against women, because the boxer isn’t that good anyway…

Why do people hate women so much?

Rummly · 03/08/2024 16:11

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 03/08/2024 16:00

has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won

This alone is bullshit. 42 wins out of 51 bouts.

All the losses are probably against that other man who’s boxing as a woman.

ChishiyaBat · 03/08/2024 16:08

@stormstormystormstorm there are multiple threads about it, one is trending right now.

stormstormystormstorm · 03/08/2024 16:06

Oh no, cross post @Fetlocksblowininthewind

stormstormystormstorm · 03/08/2024 16:05

Am genuinely not being inflammatory, but DH and I just had the same discussion, where he told me that she was always female. I had not understood this or heard it from anyone else, other than DH and the above poster.

Where can I find the information to say that this is due to an DSD and male puberty ?

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 16:05

This reply has been deleted

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BeBraveLittlePenguin · 03/08/2024 16:04

Oh do stop it, indeed.

PepeParapluie · 03/08/2024 16:01

‘This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous’

oh the irony

Longlazyday · 03/08/2024 16:01

If you can enter the competition with the make chromosome then this should allow people to enter the ring with raised levels of testosterone. Where dues the difference lie?

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 03/08/2024 16:00

has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won

This alone is bullshit. 42 wins out of 51 bouts.

SonicTheHodgeheg · 03/08/2024 16:00

ElleMD80 · 03/08/2024 15:57

Never seen in a hijab, even when the trainer is wearing a hijab: Khelif is a man.

Internet says that hijab is optional
in Algeria

ElleMD80 · 03/08/2024 15:57

Never seen in a hijab, even when the trainer is wearing a hijab: Khelif is a man.

EatMoreFibre · 03/08/2024 15:54

@OhDoStoppit it doesn't sound like you have kept up with this issue

As much as I oppose males boxing against females I'm not sure the optics of this money award are good. These days anything connected to Russia tarnishes sportspeople's reputation and throws doubt onto any claim.