Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

I think if I had been in Imam Kalif’s shoes I would have suppressed any hint of the knowledge. It would have been too horrifying.
Why horrifying? Since Khelif has never had menses and would have gone through male puberty, those two things alone would have made it quite clear that he is - and has been since conception - a male person.

Khelif and Lin are men. Referring to one or both as "she" is disrespectful and belittling to all women and girls.

@ResisterOfTwaddleRex

On the fundamental point I don't disagree. I have stated clearly that I believe Imane Khelif should not be permitted to compete as a female boxer because of the importance of integrity, safety and fairness in the sport.

But some of the language used characterises Imane as someone "pretending" to be female. From her perspective, she is female and has always been female. It is very different to have a girls body and be raised a girl, and then to undergo this devastating revelation about your biology +/- virilising changes at or after puberty, vs being a normal biological male who decides at some point that their inner self is female (whatever that means). It's wrong to conflate these experiences by using words such as "imagined self" and not-so-subtlely equating her to a male domestic abuser. Female is how she was born and how she was raised. She didn't "choose" a female identity.

This could literally happen to my daughter, she's never had a karotype check, why would she? Would she cease to be the daughter I've raised? All I'm trying to say is we can talk about fairness in women's sport without needing to bring Imane's identity into it, in a cruel way. After all we are agreeing this is about biology, not identity.

So I agree she cannot compete but I have compassion for her and I don't view her as a man. Imane has some innate biological traits in keeping with a man and others in keeping with a woman. In my opinion those with DSD are truly the only people who should be allowed to decide their legal sex (but I agree, not to compete in female sport).

There are also testosterone limits in female sport? If an XX athlete has excess testosterone and is virilised as a result they may also not be able to compete but we can understand without the need to say she is a cheating man and lose all empathy for her position. If Imane is banned from the sport (which, I do agree should happen) her life and livelihood will be destroyed and that is through no fault of her own - chiefly it will because the rules around female sport are inconsistent and unclear and so it is possible (probable?) that intersex female teenagers will be pushed toward professional sport.

I hope that clarifies my position. X

@AstonScrapingsNameChange thank you for the correction

@ElleMD80 I went on Khalid's Instagram not one picture of a hijab in personal or training shots.

Disorders of sexual development are sex specific. "Intersex" is an old fashioned term that some people still use today. It does not mean what some people think it means.

They knew they are a male and still competed in the women's category. I call that cheating.

Regardless of how sad it may be for them to not compete as a woman, they don't deserve to shatter someone else's dreams to make themselves feel better.

Intersex is an outdated term for Disorder of Sexual Development.

A person is still either male or female, with a DSD.

There is no third sex which is what 'Intersex' implies.

It might not seem respectful to refer to them as 'he' or a 'man' but it's important in these discussions to be clear and avoid this kind of confusion. Especially as the media is not being.

Pictures of a child in a dress are not a free pass to punch women in the face and steal their dreams.

Getting told you thought one thing but actually it's another, isn't either. Sad for the individual but it begins and ends there. It's not on the entire world to prop up one person's imagined self.

Males don't belong in women's sport. End of story.

This must never ever happen again and we must revert to material reality, and fairness for women and girls.

I don't think that somebody with XY chromosomes should compete within female sport. A line has to be drawn.

However, there isn't enough information to conclude that Imane Khelif is a "cheating man". It's possible that Imane Khelif was born with entirely female genitalia, not merely ambiguous and may have had no idea about the Y chromosome until after her boxing career had already begun. There is evidence in the form of childhood photographs that clearly supports this. To receive this diagnosis at or after puberty would be devastating to anyone, and most of all a sportsperson aspiring to a professional career.

I think it is cruel and unnecessary to misgender Imane and altogether it is important to completely separate discussion of DSD from discussion related to being "trans". It is possible to feel that Imane should not compete in female sport whilst recognising what a personal tragedy that is for her and having some compassion for her position. She did not ask for her biology to be this way and she is intersex, not a man.

It's ridiculous how many people are dense enough to think that the fact that Khelif, Lin or any other XY boxer in the women's category has lost plenty of fights is somehow evidence that there's no advantage. They must be very dense, or not understand what "advantage" means.

If you are playing a dice-roll game where one opponent has dice numbered 1-6 and the other has numbers 2-7 then player 2 has a clear advantage but they will not always win. That doesn't mean it a fair game.

In boxing you are competing for something where there's a combination of skill, reaction time, fitness and strength required.

If a boxer has XY chromosomes and is not insensitive to testosterone (complete insensitivity seems unlikely from what I've seen) then reaction time and strength will be affected by male advantage. It would still be possible for an XX woman to win a match against them if her fitness and skill were significantly higher but that doesn't make it a fair fight. The dice are loaded.

It would be like making some of the runners on a track race wear kilogram weights on their ankles while others don't. It doesn't matter exactly how many people with the ankle weights make it to the podium - maybe some will if their fitness is way higher than the average of the rest of the runners - but the race cannot have been a fair one and the only solution is to have one podium for those without ankle weights and a second podium for those who have them

"This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous".

Indeed it is. I can only assume biology is no longer taught at school.

She was cheated,her opponent was a man.

Who continues to cheat.

Same as your sex then.

Seems fair.

This is what gets me and it's awful all round.

They're male. Brought up as female. Legally female, but male in their chromosomes and in their physique, regardless of genital defects.

So they're neither so good that they would beat every woman they fight in which case likely wouldn't win against men. So what are they? A gold medal winning olympian who is likely am averagely good male athlete?

What a mess.

I believe she apologised for not shaking hands after the fight.
I think she must be under huge pressure and feel very concerned by the criticism some have made of her. Another poster also wrote the right wing politicos are using her as a sort of mascot which she may not want at all.
The whole thing must be a nightmare for her.
Although this is not a trans issue directly clearly trans activists are very invested in males being able to compete in women’s sports and from hearing how other women who have crossed them have received threats of being cancelled, rape and even death who would want to be in this position?

@Fetlocksblowininthewind Thanks for filling me in. I agree with you, it is sickening that a woman had to apologise to a man for being battered. As you said yourself, it was ever thus.

Hahaha they really are muppets

Just catching up. I see Scrolling's picture question is answered/all OK.

I know more Algerians women who don’t wear a Hijab than those who do. It’s not so common in women from Algeria and Morocco for eg.

What did Angela apologise for please?

Her opponent is a male. Who can tell if his backstory is true or not. Algeria is not exactly a society of open unbiased media and communication I'd say. The hierarchy of men in Islam is something to be remembered also.

As KJK so eloquently put it - "he's a man"!

"This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous. '
But you are talking about yourself!
Bizarre, and so profoundly offensive to those with DSDs

If we put these 2 boxers and the 3 800m runners from the 2016 Rio olympics in a room big brother style do you think we'd see them all treating each other as 'other' women?

Nah. I don't think so.

Ok, I take your point, and also, since seeing a photo of him from Resister, I feel he may be aware of himself being XY, and just taking advantage of the IOC rules going his way.