Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

She maintains a female identity by asking to be referred to as a woman and referring to herself as a woman. She was clearly raised as female and there are XY DSDs that can account for this.

Do I need to go through photos of Imane Khalif and see what she is wearing to decide whether she has a female identity? I think it's more relevant than she has genitalia that was identified as female at birth and was raised as a girl unknowing her DSD status (if this is true, of course). I think this is a situation where if she asks, it is fair to allow her to continue that identity regardless of her haircut or clothes.

Haircut or clothes as deciding whether someone is male or female is irrelevant to me as a GC feminist I am interested in the bodies people are born in and they way they were socialised/raised as children. Clearly (to me) this is complex in DSD and I disagree with the cruel absolutism that XY = man, (in the context of DSD only). I think people who actually have DSD are individuals whose opinion on their gender identity actually matters and should be respected, as a separate issue as to whether they should be allowed to participate in women's sport.

If she is identifying as female only because she wants to compete in women's boxing - problem solved because her identity should be irrelevant to whether she competes in women's boxing. Make the rules of the competition clear, but treat people with DSD with respect by allowing them to let us know the sex they wish to be known as, not forcing them to change their name and whole identity at puberty which would be unspeakably cruel (in cases where diagnosis is delayed to puberty - which despite a previous posters assertions is possible).

And by the way. What the actual fuck do you think this week has been like for people with disorders of sexual development having to listen to the whole world talk ignorant shit about them?

Men with 46XY 5ARD, are men. Real men with a disorder. Women with Swyer's Syndrome, real women with a disorder. They aren't a political fucking football to be mused over and spoken about with lies.

Just imagine being a teenage boy right now with 46xy. He'd have his family and doctors telling him that he is male, he was not born with female parts and then you have people on the internet spouting off that they were born with a vagina. I was born with a facial disfiguration and that was hard enough to come to terms with. I've heard more than my own fair share of bullshit speculation about what is wrong with me and what it means. And that was bad enough.

I personally agree re athletes should stop when they are discovered to have XY chromosomes.

However I also think that Khelif is likely to sincerely identify as a woman (as she was raised) and feel she has a right to be there. Her belief that she has a right to be there will have been reinforced by her cultural background, her coach, everyone that has supported her, and indeed it seems the Olympics officials - so it isn't like she's completely alone. She will have worked hard. She will have to sacrifice a lot to let go of the belief that she should be there. It's not something everyone can do. Many/most of us protect our beliefs even when they are wrong. Even more so when there are incredible personal incentives for doing so and if there are massive sunk costs.

That is not to take away from the work and sacrifice of other female athletes such as Angela Carini - I truly feel for her and believe she has been failed terribly as have the other female boxing competitors. This should not have happened the rules should be clear. Imane Khelif should have quit women's boxing as a teenager when her DSD was discovered.

Nevertheless she did not choose to have a DSD or to be raised with a female identity.

I disagree with Khelif's (in this case presumed, but let's go with it) belief that she should participate in women's sport. I agree (with you) that it is not safe, fair or in the interests of women's sport as a valid competition for her do so.

But I don't need for her to be a 2 dimensional villain for that to be the case and I really think it is very unnecessary and hurtful to repeatedly refer to her as a man when she has a DSD and was raised with and clearly maintains a female identity (this is very different in my opinion to being a biologically normal male raised with a male identity and then adopting a female one). I think society (if not women's sports for overriding reasons of safety, fairness and integrity of the sport) can make some accomodations to the very very few number of people with XY DSD and identified as female at birth, an already very stigmatised (and surely traumatising if diagnosed at puberty) condition. Least of all, allowing them to continue the female identities they have possessed for their entire lives.

Show me where he maintains a female identity, all the posts I have seen he seems to be living and dressing as male.

I personally agree re athletes should stop when they are discovered to have XY chromosomes.

However I also think that Khelif is likely to sincerely identify as a woman (as she was raised) and feel she has a right to be there. Her belief that she has a right to be there will have been reinforced by her cultural background, her coach, everyone that has supported her, and indeed it seems the Olympics officials - so it isn't like she's completely alone. She will have worked hard. She will have to sacrifice a lot to let go of the belief that she should be there. It's not something everyone can do. Many/most of us protect our beliefs even when they are wrong. Even more so when there are incredible personal incentives for doing so and if there are massive sunk costs.

That is not to take away from the work and sacrifice of other female athletes such as Angela Carini - I truly feel for her and believe she has been failed terribly as have the other female boxing competitors. This should not have happened the rules should be clear. Imane Khelif should have quit women's boxing as a teenager when her DSD was discovered.

Nevertheless she did not choose to have a DSD or to be raised with a female identity.

I disagree with Khelif's (in this case presumed, but let's go with it) belief that she should participate in women's sport. I agree (with you) that it is not safe, fair or in the interests of women's sport as a valid competition for her do so.

But I don't need for her to be a 2 dimensional villain for that to be the case and I really think it is very unnecessary and hurtful to repeatedly refer to her as a man when she has a DSD and was raised with and clearly maintains a female identity (this is very different in my opinion to being a biologically normal male raised with a male identity and then adopting a female one). I think society (if not women's sports for overriding reasons of safety, fairness and integrity of the sport) can make some accomodations to the very very few number of people with XY DSD and identified as female at birth, an already very stigmatised (and surely traumatising if diagnosed at puberty) condition. Least of all, allowing them to continue the female identities they have possessed for their entire lives.

Khelif is 25. The truth about about their biology won't have just been discovered 2 days ago. At the point a person knows they are not female and they have significant advantage over female athletes is the point they should stop. Once they take that decision to continue and everyone colludes with the lie is where all the sympathy ends.

There's a very good chance it was known by many including Khelif before embarking on a professional boxing career on the international stage.

Yet Caster Semenya and Imane Khelif who both have a DSD identify as female and want to be referred to as female. So it is not me who is speaking "for" people with DSD or lumping them altogether on this thread. It is other people referring to these people as men who are overriding their preference, not treating them as individuals and insulting them*.

*Which is incidentally, completely unnecessary and unhelpful in a discussion about whether they should be allowed to participate in women's sport.

I think if I had been in Imam Kalif’s shoes I would have suppressed any hint of the knowledge. It would have been too horrifying.
Why horrifying? Since Khelif has never had menses and would have gone through male puberty, those two things alone would have made it quite clear that he is - and has been since conception - a male person.

Khelif and Lin are men. Referring to one or both as "she" is disrespectful and belittling to all women and girls.

Yet Caster Semenya and Imane Khelif who both have a DSD identify as female and want to be referred to as female. So it is not me who is speaking "for" people with DSD or lumping them altogether on this thread. It is other people referring to these people as men who are overriding their preference, not treating them as individuals and insulting them*.

*Which is incidentally, completely unnecessary and unhelpful in a discussion about whether they should be allowed to participate in women's sport.

Semenya is a man with 46xy 5 alpha reductase. He is a man with internal testes and a micro penis. That's almost certainly what Khelif has too.

Lack of visibly obvious penis doesn't make female genitalia. We've got of our things going on, not lack of penis.

Please don't lump everyone with DSDs together. There are a range of disorders and the people born with them are still either men or women. It's really offensive and often hurtful to talk about them as if they are the same and not actually men and women

That's not what I said. You postulated that Khelif could have been born with female genitalia. That would only be possible if Khelif had Swyer's Syndrome, ie a woman with a Y Chromosome. Osteopenia and severe risk of Osteoporosis is comorbid with Swyers Syndrome. Becoming a world class boxer would be impossible.

Plenty of people with DSDs can be boxers, but not those with a vagina and a y chromosome.

You’re talking as if Algeria along with other “conservative Middle Eastern countries” are stuck in the Victorian era in terms of medical advances. In reality, they have doctors that are as well educated as those in the UK. Stop dumbing them down.
Khalif has used his condition as a way of achieving sporting success, thats why he chose it.

Have I said once that I think Imane Khelif should be allowed to participate in women's sport? Can you explain what you're talking about in relation to what I've said please?

If there is no reason to be cruel and insulting, I think it matters to choose not to be. I actually think that being cruel about Imane Khelif and making equivalences that she has a male identity but has merely pretended to have a female identity to cheat at boxing (despite the evidence that she was raised as a girl and has DSD therefore in all likelihood never chose a female identity but was born and raised with one) is actually unhelpful/obfuscating of the need to recognise that this isn't personal and her identity isn't relevant.

It is possible she has felt like a man since whatever age and maybe even she's a horrible man who wants to hurt women. I think it's more likely she feels she is a woman and just want to pursue her dream of being a professional boxer. But it literally doesn't matter because only her biology matters to the safety, fairness and integrity of the sport. Therefore she should.not compete. But brining in this speculation about her basically being an evil man is not helpful, quite the opposite.

Can you explain please why Khelif would have bones too brittle to make a career in boxing if she has a DSD?

As I understand there are a number of athletes XY with DSD who have competed / are competing in professional women's sport (hence why this has become a hot button issue)? Have I misunderstood you? Caster Semenya is a famous example born with female genitalia, a female upbringing and identity but DSD & XY chromosomes. Her bones were not too brittle for her to succeed in women's athletics.

I think this is quite likely to be a similar situation.

Can you explain please why Khelif would have bones too brittle to make a career in boxing if she has a DSD?

As I understand there are a number of athletes XY with DSD who have competed / are competing in professional women's sport (hence why this has become a hot button issue)? Have I misunderstood you? Caster Semenya is a famous example born with female genitalia, a female upbringing and identity but DSD & XY chromosomes. Her bones were not too brittle for her to succeed in women's athletics.

I think this is quite likely to be a similar situation.

Nope. If that were the case Khelif would have bones too brittle to make a career out of professional, Olympic level boxing. It's not remotely possible that Khelif is anything other than a man.

I am sorry, I forgot who posted this earlier but it has the answer
to your question.

https://x.com/SashaLPC/status/1819764151293821174

cultural context and the role of the IOC (and whether Khalif “knows he’s a man”) First off, I am hesitant to analyze someone else’s life in this forum, but on the public world stage of the Olympics, Iman Khalif’s status has become a point of debate so I’ll say tentatively a few things…

I’ve been watching Arabic interviews (and translating with help from my tutor) for the last few days to try and understand the context around Iman Khalif. Khalif has clearly been raised as a girl. Photos of her childhood show her in typical female attire. In interviews, in fact, great sympathy is extended to her because she came from a poor family with separated parents and as a child, she took on a lot of responsibility to help her mother. This is seen as a hardship not appropriate to place on girls so it’s a point of sympathy in those conversations.

And Hijab is NOT required for women in Algeria, so images of Khalif in adulthood with short hair and no Hijab are not at all proof that she lives “as a man.” Then again I’m sure strangers looking at Khalif have perceived her as a man because she is clearly masculinized. But to people who know her and in all interviews I’ve seen, she’s a woman.

Gender nonconformity (though looked down upon in the ME) does happen. But known cross-sex dressing in the Arab world does not imply trans or cross-sex identity. It’s just not a concept there as it is in the west. And Iman wearing men’s clothes does not mean she saw herself as a man or that anyone else intimately in her life saw her that way either. In a conservative, Islamic Middle Eastern countries, genital anatomy is the foundation for understanding biological sex.

If she does have ARD5 (which has been suggested as a hypothesis by knowledgeable scientists and other individuals), then she was likely born with pretty typical-looking female genitalia. Even after discovering the anomalies of the DSD around puberty (becoming extremely masculinized) intersex conditions are highly taboo and not well understood. There is no concept of an “intersex person” - Iman likely perceives herself as a woman with a strange condition It’s culturally impossible for her family to say at her puberty, “oops we guess Iman is really a guy”. People in the West cannot fully grasp the cultural context and social consequences of such a declaration.

Interestingly, my teacher (a highly educated woman in Cairo in her 30s) suspected that upon discovering their daughter would be much more masculine than other girls, perhaps her parents thought it would be best to put her in a sport which might house other masculine girls and women: boxing.

Just a guess of course, as we have no idea why Khalif chose the sport, but remember that in the Middle East helping your child to blend in naturally with their own birth-sex is among the most important things you can do for them. So my point here is yes, biologically Khalif is actually male, but even after learning about the DSD, is still conceptualizing herself as female.

This context does NOT alter the answer in the question of ethics: Is it wrong for the IOC to have standards which allow DSD males (regardless of their social or legal identity) to compete against biological women?

I don't think that somebody with XY chromosomes should compete within female sport. A line has to be drawn.

However, there isn't enough information to conclude that Imane Khelif is a "cheating man". It's possible that Imane Khelif was born with entirely female genitalia, not merely ambiguous and may have had no idea about the Y chromosome until after her boxing career had already begun. There is evidence in the form of childhood photographs that clearly supports this. To receive this diagnosis at or after puberty would be devastating to anyone, and most of all a sportsperson aspiring to a professional career.

I think it is cruel and unnecessary to misgender Imane and altogether it is important to completely separate discussion of DSD from discussion related to being "trans". It is possible to feel that Imane should not compete in female sport whilst recognising what a personal tragedy that is for her and having some compassion for her position. She did not ask for her biology to be this way and she is intersex, not a man.

She wasn't 'cheated' she was not as good as her competitor, whether by training or luck of size.

Khelif was born a woman, has female body parts and has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won.

This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous.

A woman being bigger than another woman means she's 'cheating'?? Talk about a bunch of snowflakes. Must we also cancel Serena Williams for being too powerful? Simone Biles because her petite size helps her in her sport?? Any woman with PCOS who has higher testosterone levels???

I absolutely agree that TRANSwomen should not be competing against women, but this is not what this was.

@Tinylittleunicorn it matters not what Khelif's perspective is. It matters what's real. And therefore fair. And therefore safe.

Still none of the whataboutery ever cares for the perspective of females

@Tinylittleunicorn
Please will you desist from using the word intersex. As other posters have mentioned, this is highly insulting to people with DSD.