Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

The progressive movement treats any gender / biological sex edge case as though it's part of a natural spectrum. The reason is understandable, given the history humanity has when it comes to mistreating anyone who doesn't fit into the "correct" categories. They believe they are making the right moral choice and protecting vulnerable people against a potentially cruel society.

But there is no recognition (or even self-awareness) within the progressive movement of how their approach works and the negative unintended consequences of this approach. They adhere to the principle unquestioningly, and will argue that black is white and even deliberately misunderstand the science if the alternative is accepting that, say, a man with DSD is actually a man with DSD and not a woman.

Ultimately, today's progressives are doing what the more radical leftist movements always do, and putting their preferred moral beliefs ahead of the observations of objective reality. They're following a dogmatic ideology that they will not accept is a dogmatic ideology. Therefore, they are fundamentally incapable of accepting that life is messy and sometimes unfair and doesn't fit into their simplistic world view. And, as is also tyical of the hard left, they will claim that anyone who disagrees with them is an ally of neofascists.

So I said:

"People witb XY DSD including 5-ASD deficiency and CAIS can be born with fully female external genitalia and a vaginal pouch"

I have never made the claim that a vaginal pouch is the same internally as a vagina, only that externally it is the same.

Then you said:
"There is no such thing as a vaginal pouch"

"A man with 46xy 5ard does not have a vulva, no labia, inner and outer, no clitoiris and no vagina"

Then you linked a diagram which demonstrates that at birth the external genitalia of somebody with 5-ASD are as I have described, including the vaginal pouch.

And you have continued to swear at and personally insult me.

I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this discussion.

Incidentally of course I don't believe that "women are just small men with no penis". I just don't deny the currently understood science about external genital development, the embryological equivalence of various male and female external parts, and how this is influenced by the presence or absence testosterone within or without the context of DSD.

No it doesn't. Do you actually think that women are just small men with no penis? Seriously. Do you know how utterly misogynistic pretty much everything you are posting is? I mean come on. I'm gen x, i'm pretty old, I went to an all girls convent school and I learned all about male and female genitalia in first year science, second year home economics, third year religion and in really in depth ways in social sciences in fifth and sixth year. (I didn't do fourth year I'm pretty sure I'd have gone over this again, if I had.)

Do people really not know the absolute basics about our own bodies that we think our vaginas are empty pouches?

THE POUCH IS NOT A VAGINA!!!!!!

What is actually wrong with you that you think a pouch to nowhere is a muscular canal to the uterus. I did not say there was no pouch, I said a pouch is not a vagina. Do you know how utterly, utterly, utterly offensive and genuinely fucking stupid that is?

I think you must be a troll, nobody is genuinely this ignorant.

The diagram you've linked literally shows this. We have profound differences of internal sexual organs but externally there is a phallus that is the size of clitoris and lacks an enclosed foreskin. A urethral opening which is separate to the phallus and positioned just anterior to a vaginal opening. And the absence of a scrotum or externally detectable tests.

In other words at birth, feminine external genitalia which would lead to a sex assignment of female in the absence of further medical investigations.

Your diagram contains a vaginal pouch, which a page ago you were pretty clear doesn't exist in your expletive laden post which I did not know how to respond to.

Male and female external genitalia develop from the same embryonic source and the difference is the influence of testosterone. Eg, if you are XX but have male levels of testosterone for example influencing the development of your external genitalia as a fetus than you may develop a fused labia majora that is indistinguishable from a scrotum besides the absence of testes. The scrotum and labia majora are equivalent structures as are the penis and clitoris. This is how the embryological development of external genitalia is currently understood.

In case you are mistaking my intention with this - I am not stating this to suggest in anyway that there are not two sexes phenotypically or that sex doesn't matter or that all men are women or anything at all along those lines.

Merely that a person with DSD can be born with external genitalia that is anatomically identical or very similar to female external genitalia despite having XY chromosomes to the extent that they are mistaken as female and are raised with that identity, and the DSD not diagnosed until puberty. They will not of course, develop female internal organs including inner vagina, cervix, uterus or ovaries - and I have never claimed such. This is why a vaginal pouch develops and not a vagina. It's to do with the embryonic origins of the vagina. Externally however the appearance will be the same.

I'm sorry that discussing this has made you so angry.

The girl kneeling is a nice touch. Shouldn't he have had the same impulse to make himself lower and smaller if he was 'raised as a female'?

Is this your reaction to being put in your place with all of the utter bollocks (no pun intended) that you spouted about female genitalia. Caster Semenya is a man. I therefore refer to him as a man. And not only is he a man, he is a man who deliberately destroyed the hopes and dreams of a generation of female runners. He's a horrible, cheating man. I know he identifies as a man but even if he didn't, I will not support the delusions of men who hurt women. Not ever.

And I sure as hell won't misgender every single innocent man and woman who was born with a DSD in order to virtue signal about how respectful I am of a cheater. Because that is what you are doing. Except you aren't just doing that, you are spreading horrible disinformation about their bodies. But I guess it's ok if you don't know their names?

The image on the right btw is what a male with 5ard is born with. As you can plainly see, I hope, that is not female genitalia. If you think it's female genitalia, I'd suggest you educate yourself.

Well done to the IBA. This is appalling and I'm so pleased that at least one sporting body is standing up for these women

All this.

It doesn't matter how he's been raised or what he thinks he is;none of it alters the cold,hard fact that he's a man.

There is plenty of information out there now that proves imane is male.
It will I'm sure all come out soon but at puberty did no one notice imane not having periods? Got worried why imane wasnt having periods and looked very male?
As for the pictures, look at the most famous trans person in Florida, for many years they could have passed until (not at all remarkably) puberty, from then on, they looked more male everyday.

Anyway there are more recent pictures of imane that look like imane is Male, likes Male type clothing,doing Male type things etc. I'm certain imane knows all about the dsd and chromosomes.

As for the "completely separate discussion of trans and dsd", what in the fuck do you think weve been saying for actual decades now. It is not us who conflated the two things. We and dsd people have been saying since oh around the 1990s to quit trying to meld the two things, they are very different.

I can have compassion for imane, but remember Angela, the woman who's dreams were shattered, she needs compassion too.

Maybe NOW we can all stop conflating trans and dsd, for the good of women.

He does seem to think he's the Queen of Sheba!!!

This. Especially at elite level sport. The olympics is brutal. Plenty of people have dreams shattered because they aren’t good enough or suffer an injury or are disqualified. It’s shit for them. But that’s the nature of playing sport at the very top level.

I get that this is awful for any athletes caught in a media storm. That’s the IOC’s fault for failing to have proper criteria. If it had kept chromosome testing we wouldn’t have this issue because everyone could be confident all athletes are entitled to be there.

@Tinylittleunicorn i don't care what this boxer thinks he is. I don't care if he thinks he is the queen of Sheba. What I do care about is that a man with a DSD is pounding a woman in the boxing ring when he just shouldn't be there.
You know sometimes people need a dose of reality. We all want things that aren't going to happen and a person with a DSD is no different. If a proper DNA test was done and it was proved he was a man with a DSD then he can get on with his life knowing the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. That's life.

Caster Semenya talks, acts, behaves exactly like a man, and appears to have been raised as a man.

The good news for men with 5 ards is that they have good fertility treatment nowadays which will help them become fathers. They do something with the type of immature sperm they produce and can ‘bring them on’ so to speak. They then can fertilise the ovum of a woman. Men with Semenya’s condition can father children with this intervention.

Am I supposed to pretend male sperm is female now too, I wonder?

Whatever was thought when Khelif was a child would have been seriously questioned at puberty - when Khelif went on to develop according to male puberty, and not according to female puberty. No breast development and no menstruation. This would certainly have led to further medical investigation, especially in a country in which all girls are expected to go on to get married and have children.

It is obvious that people must have known that something was 'not right'; not as expected, from quite an early age. 12 is about the time that puberty kicks in. Nobody gets to age 20 -fully post pubertal and with development of the opposite sex characteristics without query. Nobody.

Caster Semenya's first love was football.....but as girls football was not really the thing then as it is now, instead Semenya was chanelled into athletics where they could compete as a girl. The sports' bodies of the countries in question have taken advanatage of the ambiguous nature of the situation for their own needs, and to provide an outlet for all of that clearly male energy supposedly housed in a girl ( but who has the body of a boy)

First time I’ve heard testicles (even internal) being called female body parts. Obvious male level testosterone production causing virilisation from the liathróidi (Irish for ‘balls’).

Everyone in the world is a female then. The men and the women.

Caster Semenya only wishes to be referred to as a woman in sport, where his male physiology gives him an advantage over actual women and therefore has financial benefits.

Semenya lives as a male outside sport and has done since puberty. This is a photo of Semenya in schooldays, top left, with two fellow pupils, a boy in the boys' uniform and a girl in the girls' uniform. Which is Semenya wearing?

Thread about an excellent essay from the Co owner of Reduxx who first reported on this.
She adresses all the bullshit.
In arguing with those wether in bad faith or ignorant, this is all you need.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137283617

Imane Khalif might be the nicest person in the world but if her punch is stronger because of male biology then she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Ergo it is not necessary to speculate on her character / identity etc. She is a stranger to us all.

Honestly though do male people of good character participate in the sport of the opposite sex? Especially boxing, knowing that not only does it harm women by taking from them but also that there's substantial possibility you could cause a woman life changing injuries or death?

I don't see anything wrong with pointing this out. I think it's a pretty big hint as to character. Especially as there will be male people out there in the world with the same or similar DSD who have chosen not to do this.

Okay that is a fair point! I don't know I am just going on what Caster herself has apparently said.

I think the important thing is keeping the integrity, fairness and safety of women's sports by saying XY chromosomes means you cannot participate. I do not know these athlete's innermost thoughts and I accept that I cannot know them. Ultimately, I don't think it is relevant as to whether Caster Semenya/Imane Khalif/any other athlete in this position is an unfortunate victim who totally sees themselves as female as they were raised, or a fraud playing the system. I doubt any person can be reduced to such a simple caricature.

In the presence of uncertainty, and where it should have nothing to do with the actual outcome (which is whether or not a person can compete) I think these things should be impersonal and non judgemental. Eg Athlete X has XY chromosomes so they aren't eligible. We don't have to make any (potentially very unfair and hurtful) assumptions about their gender identity, character or intentions it's just a fact. I would prefer to err on the side of not adding stigma to DSD and not villainising these athletes with DSD. As it is not necessary to do so to protect women's sport, it detracts because it gives the impression that the position of saying they should not participate is one of suspicion and hatred of people with XY DSD - where the focus should be simply upon protecting women's sport.

Imane Khalif might be the nicest person in the world but if her punch is stronger because of male biology then she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Ergo it is not necessary to speculate on her character / identity etc. She is a stranger to us all.

Honestly I don't find it surprising that the gender identity of someone with DSD would be complex. But I think, in the specific context of DSD, gender identity is surely something that the affected person has to grapple with themselves. I think it would be very cruel, to take a person raised as female, with a female name, a female identity, a female childhood - and impose a new male identity based on a previously unknown to them Y chromosome and internal testes when they have explicitly asked us not to do so. I cannot imagine the trauma, stigma and confusion of being raised as female and then undergoing a male puberty and discovering you are male. A lot of people without DSD are still working themselves out in their 20s! These are a small number of individuals meeting absolute criteria outwith their control, there's no slippery slope when it comes to showing them some compassion.

We can let people with DSD work out their gender identity themselves, follow their lead, and be calm, empathetic and respectful about them - and at the same time say, sorry you are in this position but you cannot compete in women's sport.

Caster has to say that publicly to remain in female sport though. It's very obvious that privately this is not the case at all.

If any of these males with DSDs were to publicly say 'actually I see myself as a man' then even the IOC couldn't justify allowing them to stay in the sport they make their money from.

Caster is man, he's fathered children, it don't get more male than that!