Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

You are so rude. The poster is simply explaining that an XY baby whose body is formed like the one in the diagram could be taken to be a baby girl in the absence of other information.

Your tone is very aggressive indeed.

Thank you for explaining so clearly.
One thing I was wondering about lack of menstruation as a sign of a DSD was whether it might not also be common in female athletes with very low body fat, though being very thin may be more typical of runners. Perhaps though if a teen were so thin they would not be strong enough to be winning at boxing.

I am not suggesting thus is the case with Khelif, just wondering generally.

I'm not surprised the IBA are acting. I don't know anything about them, so I can't say whether they are a reliable organisation or not - but they are getting a lot of flack and abuse online with the aim of discrediting them, so they will want to defend themselves without having to explictly reveal the results of the medical testing.

Sorry posted too soon. And my subsequent post didn’t make sense hence edit.

The two of you may be understanding different things by the term genetalia.

An XY male with complete insensitivity to testosterone/androgens may be born with their crotch area looking very much like the female area, with no penis or testicles visible and an opening that looks like a vagina. They definitely would not have womb or ovaries but when a baby is born you aren't checking for womb/ovaries - it's just willy="It's a boy" no-willy="It's a girl".

I would understand someone claiming an XY person has female genitalia as referring solely to what is visible externally at a glance - obviously there would be clear differences inside.

In addition to this high quality ultrasonic scanning is available and will pick up organ anomies at 20+ weeks. If there is any suspicion of abnormalities referral to specialist centres are available.
Twenty years ago I was in hospital with a mum expecting twins who knew that one of the twins had a hand abnormality. She was closely monitored because of an increase risk of related abnormalities. She knew at 20wks one hand was not developing normally.

And you don''t get to decide when discussions are over I am afraid, and this one will run and run.

The information is easily acertainable and it is well understood how DSDs arise see here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6337427dc583e5578b5d2192/t/65c8ee1210f5ea02e0cdaabb/1707666963838/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.02.11.pdf

If a baby is born in a place with access to chromosomal and genetic testing any hint of ambiguity of the genitalia would be thoroughly investigated and it would be worked out what was going on. The issue is in poorer places with poorer access to healthcare of religious or political regime considerations where they will assume, rather than test. Why do you think the 5ARD athlete have all been scouted from poorer backgrounds? There are no controversial XY males in women's sports from N.A or Europe.

These are also people in their 20s and 30's born several decade agao when genetic testing was still expensive and time-consuming and only available in specialized labs. That is no longer the case. Every hospital now, pretty much, can process a cheek swab or other sample to look at chromosomes under the microscope and determine whether XX, XY or some abnormal number of pair 23 sex chromosomes are present. The number of babies born and wrongly assigned sex or not noticed that there was a DSD must be vanishingly small, even in poorer countries. Babies not born in hospital, yeah maybe, but it certainly isn't unknowable. And any parent notcing that their daughter doesn't menstruate at puberty must, now, even if they deny it to themselves, know that something is up.

But they can. To the extent they are sexed as female at birth. It's literally described in medical literature, which I have cited. I cannot possibly make this any clearer so I think it is time now for this discussion to draw to a close.

I am engaging you on your claim that it is not possible for a diagnosis of XY DSD to be delayed until puberty, such that the individual with disorder believes until that point that they are female, and is raised as such. Edit: to be clear, this is because their external genitalia is feminine.

Clearly your claim, which is that this is not possible, which you have repeated many times, whilst swearing and calling me names - is wrong. There is a lot of medical literature describing this exact situation. The case study mentioned, however you feel about the treatment approach taken, is a very clear example.

It is not necessary to deny medical reality for a small number of people with DSD to achieve that goal

That is literally what you are doing when you claim that males can be born with female genitalia.

Did you actually read that? That's a description of a child being experimented upon? It's genuinely horrific on every level.

It really doesn't achieve whatever you think it does.

Progressive virilisation was stopped using GnRH-analogs to gain time. At the request of the 14 year old patient female pubertal development was inducted. Antisocial behaviour affected compliance. Virilisation proceeded when treatment was finished by the patient. Peer counselling by other affected family members encouraged the patient to adopt the male gender role. Now the patient poses questions about fertility, genital reconstruction and sexual life.

Better write to the authors of this case study where that is exactly what happened.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0035-1549085?device=mobile&innerWidth=360&offsetWidth=360

Google "delayed diagnosis 5-ARD" and you will discover article after article fully referenced describing this exact situation.

Listen, I respect your wish to protect women's spaces, a wish that I share. It is not necessary to deny medical reality for a small number of people with DSD to achieve that goal.

It is what blind means in the context of a pouch actually. It comes from the latin caecus and is used most typically in reference to the caecum in the digestive system. And is extrapolated from that to the other occurrences of blind pouches. the term blind vagina pouch does specify that it is not in anyway a vagina. You didn't use a valid medical term when you omitted the third of the term that completely changes the meaning.

I am not wrong. Nobody looks at a baby with 5ard and sees female genitalia. Throughout history it was referred to as visually ambiguous genitalia and men with the condition were considered to be hermaphrodites, not women. Nobody ever thought they were female, sometimes they attempted to raise those children as girls. Not because they really thought they were girls but because they hoped that was the right thing to do.

But we now know enough to know that humans are never, ever hermaphroditic. There is no intersex, there is no male born with female genitalia. So seriously, stop trying to double down on ignorance.

That's not what blind means and I think you know it. It means doesn't lead anywhere.

You don't want to admit that you insulted and swore at me for using a valid medical term that I didn't invent, because it triggered something in you. Fine.

You deliberately left out the word blind, which is important in the context it's written, as it means that it's not one, ie false.

It's like how the term sans serif, means without serif. Blind vaginal pouch, specifically means false in this context.

But you are wrong. People with XY chromosomes and a DSD can be born with external genitalia that is feminine to the extent that they are sexed as female as birth and their DSD is not diagnosed until puberty. I don't know why this fact is so upsetting to you but it doesn't make it less of a fact.

I completely agree that this does not mean they are biologically female and I agree that they should not therefore compete in female sport. Nevertheless it isn't a fabrication to say that some people with XY DSD do not become aware of it until puberty and that must be highly distressing from them having not unreasonably believed themselves to be a normal female for their entire lives to that point. This situation is worthy of compassion and not contempt and suspicion. It is possible not to refer to people with XY DSD raised as female with absolute contempt and literal denial of the biological reality of their anatomy, and to feel at the same time that they should not compete in women's sport.

That's pretty much it. There are DSDs that affect males and DSDs that affect women. Having a DSD doesn't make someone less of a man or a woman, anymore than being born without a leg makes someone less of a human. As I said upthread, I was born with a facial disfigurement, I've actually had people suggest I was an alien before, so I have some sort of idea about what it must be like to have people claim that you are intersex or that a man's lack of external testicles is actually a vagina. Though luckily for me, my disfigurement is almost completely cosmetic, the disabling components can be remedied by medical treatment and the cancer I'm at higher risk of is almost fully treatable.

But we're seeing people who do have DSDs, who do have serious physical issues to come to terms with, have their conditions used as a weapon this week. It's horrible. I know that their conditions are outside of the realm of most people's experience, so I get people not knowing that they aren't intersex, that people aren't born with male but with female genitalia. But to continue to argue the point after being shown that they are wrong, while pretending that they are good and kind, is genuinely awful.

Then I suggest you take down the "horribly offensive" medical diagram you linked, which has a little arrow pointing to the structure that people with 5-ASD are born with, labelling it a vaginal pouch. I didn't invent the terminology that offends you so much, it's simply what is in use.

Perhaps you can get involved in updating clinical guidance on DSD so that the anatomical terms used better reflect your ideology.

Yes, because there is no such thing as a vaginal pouch. That's correct. A vagina and a pouch are two utterly incomparable things. Continuing to pretend that you think they are the same is so mind-blowingly horrible. And yes, I do keep swearing. because what you are saying is so very, very offensive. There are no expletives that can come close to being as utterly offensive as your continued disgusting claims can convey.

Every word you type, comparing a pouch to a vagina is either staggeringly stupid or unforgivably horrible. And I don't think anyone is that stupid.

I don’t really get the whole DSD issue. Surely people born with anatomical reproductive abnormalities are still male or female?

A man or woman born infertile, for example, isn’t any less of a man or woman.

What am I not understanding?

Yup. It's unbelievable isn't it. Imagine just spouting obvious lies over and over and over and claiming they are righteous.

Is someone seriously on here trying to argue that men with 5ARD are born with a vagina with their ambiguous external genitalia that can look like a vulva? God the copium. I always knew trying to claim males and females with DSD as part of their queer spectrum would eventually bite TRAs on tbe arse. Poor people with DSDs who have repeatedly asked not to be conflated with the trans ideology (both individuals and organisations). Who are the body fascists now?