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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me present evidence to my son

595 replies

AlbertaWildRose · 02/08/2024 00:17

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 08:12

i didnt really get it, but she transitioned at the age of 55 which was so hard

You mean your middle aged male friend had gender reassignment surgery?

Edingril · 02/08/2024 08:12

So you want evidence because he won't think the way you want him too? And you are 'right'?

That is controlling behaviour

cupcaske123 · 02/08/2024 08:11

DianaAntoniaJasmine · 02/08/2024 08:01

What « movement »??? People quietly trying to live authentic lives congruent with their gender?
So what evidence are you looking for to prove what?

You haven't heard of the Trans lobby, Trans Rights Activists or Trans ideology? That movement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 08:11

What « movement »??? People quietly trying to live authentic lives congruent with their gender?

No, that's really not all that people have issues with Confused

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 08:11

Nothingeverything · 02/08/2024 07:41

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish To be fair I don't think anyone actually defines a woman as being able to have children. Plenty of women can't. But I am interested in what you mean by TW having an experience of womanhood. Personally I don't feel I have anything in common regarding womanhood with TW. What do you feel you share?

awesome question, and until i met my colleague "laura" i didnt really get it, but she transitioned at the age of 55 which was so hard and i just dont believe she would have done it if she wasn't desperate because in the 90s there was no understanding/public discourse around this so she had a torrid time. In conversation with her i did find lots of common ground. mostly frustration at stereotypes/gendered expectations and rampant sexism in the 90s but we also had very big conversations about the difference between presenting yourself for others and being who you wanted to be/felt was yourself. Feeling like you had to "act like a man" to be respected, that kindness and empathy were seen as weak, etc. I felt like we shared the feeling that we just didnt fit into the expectations of others, and those judgments were made based purely on our sex and not our character.
Truthfully, i dont understand gender dysphoria because ive never experienced it but she really did and living as a trans woman just SAVED her. ive never doubted that she felt she was a woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 08:08

good question - no i don't believe that trans women who are jailed for sexual offences should be housed in low security prisons with women (but thankfully they arent! they have supervision orders, etc as pat of the risk assessments made when they are admitted)

It's no thanks to "I'm TWAW" feminists that "thankfully they aren't!". It's thanks to Keep Prisons Single Sex lobbying the government.

Before that, some of them were.

DaisysChains · 02/08/2024 08:05

I would avoid the topic if possible

Not because it doesn’t need talked about or discussed or views challenged - the advice about using a simple statement of your position but no further by Beach is good I think

But anything more will frankly be wasted energy

He’s male

He doesn’t want to hear that males are responsible for 99% of all violent & sexual crimes

Because he’s male

He doesn’t want to hear that males are using the cover of ‘trans’ to abuse females

Because he’s male

What he wants is to be male and strong and proud of himself

And frankly atm the main role models of strong, proud of themselves, males in society are arseholes and abusers

They have the money, the power, the sex

So try and surround him with better male role models who are strong and proud of themselves and respectful in real life

because it is 99% of all crimes not 99% of all males so he has a choice to be a male who rejects violence and disrespect

he has a choice to question the lies he’s been told, to question the glossy fake instagrams, bitter incel rants and manipulative abusers regardless of how they identify or dress

he has a choice to be a decent man who respects himself and other people and who choses to work towards a life filled with love and happiness

we can’t know everything, we do our best and hope for the best

so don’t waste your energy in words (😂 reminded of that one on here just this week)

invite some good men round, present options of positive groups,
drop the rope

ultimately people, male or female, will decide for themselves if they want to be arseholes or not

even those we love that we would wish better for

DianaAntoniaJasmine · 02/08/2024 08:01

AlbertaWildRose · 02/08/2024 00:17

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

What « movement »??? People quietly trying to live authentic lives congruent with their gender?
So what evidence are you looking for to prove what?

Beachcomber · 02/08/2024 07:47

Oh and if he comes out with the (incredibly callous) "better a sterile child than a dead child" I would then have a mantra about evidence.

"That is an ideological position not an evidence based one. As I said, I cannot support an ideology which sterilises children."

Just plant the seed. If he's really at all interested in the subject he will look it up for himself. Don't send him links, etc.

HoppityBun · 02/08/2024 07:42

Engage. Don’t push back because that makes people dig in. Have a discussion about what a man is and what a woman is.

Could you become a man by saying you are a man?
could he become a woman by saying he’s a woman?
Could you each change again the next day?
what would have changed each time?
Why do we describe people as men and as women?
What does living as a man and living as a woman mean?
is he a man or is he a woman?
what does he think you are- man or woman?
how does he know?

Nothingeverything · 02/08/2024 07:41

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish To be fair I don't think anyone actually defines a woman as being able to have children. Plenty of women can't. But I am interested in what you mean by TW having an experience of womanhood. Personally I don't feel I have anything in common regarding womanhood with TW. What do you feel you share?

HipTightOnions · 02/08/2024 07:39

so many people blithely define being a woman by our ability to bear children or even to have a womb (i have neither)

We don't tend to do that here. We mostly simply think women have female bodies.

different experience of "womanhood" if you dont define it purely by sex/chromosomes (which i dont)

How do you define it?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 07:38

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 07:25

i dont believe you can change sex either, so thats common ground :)
But i do believe that there is a wide range of women's experience and i do believe that gender is socially constructed (i mean gender here, not sex). I know that this will immediately cause conflict because lots of you dont agree with me. Thats fine.
I get very frustrated as someone who cant have children that so many people blithely define being a woman by our ability to bear children or even to have a womb (i have neither) I also understand that being a woman of colour has different challenges that i wont understand or experience. Its not so hard for me to see that a trans woman has a different experience of "womanhood" if you dont define it purely by sex/chromosomes (which i dont)
Thats how i can accept TWAW while still also believing you cant change your sex

ill await the pile on with people telling me im an idiot, but ive just tried to be honest and transparent with my contributions here, and its been in good faith

The problem with this is that nobody can really explain what gender is, why we should be organising society around it, and what we do about all the people who prefer not to define themselves according to it.

I'm female. I've lived my whole life in a female body and that has unavoidably shaped my lived experience. I've never been more painfully aware of my femaleness than when I was experiencing infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss, and whilst I did eventually manage to have children, I know that even if I hadn't done so I would still be very aware of my own femaleness and indelibly marked by it.

I don't have a gender identity. I don't accept the legitimacy of gender as a way to organise society. My understanding of gender is that it is based in the very same regressive stereotypes about men and women that the original feminists were trying to liberate women from. And I want us to be liberated from it, not defined by it. But if you remove biological sex from the definition of "woman" or "man" you have to define people according to gender, because there is nothing else.

What do I, a female person who does not wish to be the opposite sex and does not wish to define myself according to gender, have in common with a male person who wishes to be the opposite sex and wishes to define themselves according to gender?

Because as far as I am concerned I am the literal opposite of that person. We could not be more different. I have more in common with a trans man (who, like me, is female) or a regular man (who, like me, does not wish to be the opposite sex or define himself according to gender) than I do with a trans woman.

But according to the trans woman, we are the same and should be using the same toilets and changing rooms and competing in the same sporting categories. Because of how they feel.

Do I get any say in the matter at all? If not, why not?

Beachcomber · 02/08/2024 07:34

I think I would avoid getting into any kind of debate around the subject with him. You won't change his mind like that. Neither will producing lots of evidence as to why he is wrong. The chances are he will dig his heels in even further and it will impact your relationship.

He will probably grow out of this particular view plus the tide is starting to turn on trans ideology in wider society.

If the subject comes up or he brings it up, personally I would repeat some sort of mantra.

Mine is "I don't have a problem with trans people but I have deep concerns about an ideology which pushes the sterilisation of gay children".

I say it slowly, clearly, calmly.
And that's all I say. I won't be drawn into any debate. I don't give examples of individuals behaviour or situations. I only ever talk about the ideology.

If the person then tries to talk about suicide risks for young people or any of the other clap trap I just repeat my mantra slightly differently.

"I cannot get on board in any way with an ideology which activates for the sterilisation of children."

If you want to change his mind the best way to do it is to plant a seed of doubt and then leave it there.

BackToLurk · 02/08/2024 07:31

He’s 18. He knows everything. You are old and know nothing about the modern world. Anyway, now we’ve covered young people.

Questions are always good. Ask him to explain what he means. Try and tease out what he believes, how he got there and get him to interrogate it himself. Draw out the inconsistencies. No one particularly needs to know the nitty gritty of their children’s sex life but, if he’s straight, presumably he’d have no issue with having sex with a transwoman, womanly penis and all. Has he read the JKR essay? If so which parts did he find particularly offensive. If not ask him to. Do a deal. In return you read something he chooses.

Keep talking. Don’t let it take over. I thought tarot cards were the bees knees at 18, we often believe any old shit.

Edited to add. Give him space to change his mind. Some of the more ‘extreme’ responses on this thread will just entrench his views and give him no way back.

CurlewKate · 02/08/2024 07:28

I have, sadly, had to accept the fact that this is something I can't talk about with my adult children. The first thing that's been off limits in all our lives together. Breaks my heart.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 07:25

Runor · 02/08/2024 07:03

OP, you could ask what he means by believing that transwomen are women? Either that means that he believes people can actually change sex (unlikely?) or that he is using a definition of the word ‘woman’ which doesn’t mean adult human female. How does he define ‘woman’? If he is depending on inner feelings, how does he categorise those adult human females who don’t recognise those feelings?

LittlePinkStars, I’d be really interested in your answer to this too as it seems to be the crux of why I don’t understand a TWAW position (please note, as it sometimes seems to need to be spelled out, I believe that transpeople should, of course, be able to live without fear or discrimination, and should have access to spaces and services etc which meet their needs)

i dont believe you can change sex either, so thats common ground :)
But i do believe that there is a wide range of women's experience and i do believe that gender is socially constructed (i mean gender here, not sex). I know that this will immediately cause conflict because lots of you dont agree with me. Thats fine.
I get very frustrated as someone who cant have children that so many people blithely define being a woman by our ability to bear children or even to have a womb (i have neither) I also understand that being a woman of colour has different challenges that i wont understand or experience. Its not so hard for me to see that a trans woman has a different experience of "womanhood" if you dont define it purely by sex/chromosomes (which i dont)
Thats how i can accept TWAW while still also believing you cant change your sex

ill await the pile on with people telling me im an idiot, but ive just tried to be honest and transparent with my contributions here, and its been in good faith

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 07:09

Peonies12 · 02/08/2024 07:04

Why not leave your adult son to develop his own opinions. He’s entitled to that.

Because the OP and many other women are trying to raise their sons to be decent people, not misogynists.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 07:07

OldCrone · 02/08/2024 06:49

What do you mean by "transgender" people? I understand "trans" and "transgender" to mean the same thing: the people we used to call transvestites or transsexuals.

I may be wrong, but I think the theory is that wearing clothes typically associated with the opposite sex is a fashion choice, not an identity. So a man might choose to wear dresses whilst still considering himself to be a man, whereas a male person who believes they identify as a woman based on how they feel inside is a trans woman.

The real question is why people think any of this is a basis on which to organise society, but sex is not.

Igneococcus · 02/08/2024 07:07

Would he date a transwoman (or transman in case he's gay)? If not, why not?

Peonies12 · 02/08/2024 07:04

Why not leave your adult son to develop his own opinions. He’s entitled to that.

Runor · 02/08/2024 07:03

OP, you could ask what he means by believing that transwomen are women? Either that means that he believes people can actually change sex (unlikely?) or that he is using a definition of the word ‘woman’ which doesn’t mean adult human female. How does he define ‘woman’? If he is depending on inner feelings, how does he categorise those adult human females who don’t recognise those feelings?

LittlePinkStars, I’d be really interested in your answer to this too as it seems to be the crux of why I don’t understand a TWAW position (please note, as it sometimes seems to need to be spelled out, I believe that transpeople should, of course, be able to live without fear or discrimination, and should have access to spaces and services etc which meet their needs)

OldCrone · 02/08/2024 06:49

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 06:39

I agree that the umbrella term of "trans" is very unhelpful here, because when i talk about trans women i dont include crossdressers/men who enjoy dressing as women but i understand that this falls under that umbrella term.
That's actually a really good point that i hadnt considered, i use "trans" pretty much exclusively for trasngender people and thats who i am thinking of when i discuss this

i will take that on board, thank you

What do you mean by "transgender" people? I understand "trans" and "transgender" to mean the same thing: the people we used to call transvestites or transsexuals.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 06:49

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 04:48

honestly, ive listened to a lot of these arguments before and i always consider anything that is put to me. A lot of the discussion tends to ask me to judge an entire group by the very worst behaviour of some, and i wouldnt expect every middle aged white man to be a paedophile so it seems inherently unfair to ask me to expect every trans woman to be a predator and limit their rights accordingly. And i'm also a scientist, so i like data. The current laws regarding self ID have been in place since 2010 and we havent seen a spike/increase in the types of crime/behaviour that are often used in these arguments, but we have seen a massive increase in media coverage. Plus i have trans friends who ive known for decades, so its perhaps a bit less "abstract" and more personal?

im not so arrogant as to assume im right and other's are wrong, but thats just where my life and my reasoning has landed. Im always open to changing my mind if there's a new view i havent thought of/new evidence i havent seen

The post you were referring to, the second post on this thread, is a factual list of things that have happened. It is not asking you to judge an entire group by the worst behaviour of some members of it. It is literally just stating things that have happened to women and girls, which were made possible because the global political establishment has imposed the idea that trans women are women on us.

Nobody thinks every white middle aged man is a paedophile (or every middle aged man of any other ethnicity, for that matter). But we do, as a society, accept that it is appropriate to keep all middle aged men out of spaces where teenage girls are getting changed. Consider a middle aged man who is a PE teacher, for example. The nicest, gentlest, kindest teacher you have ever met. Clearly he has no criminal record because he had to get an enhanced DBS check in order to get his job. He still stays out of the girls' changing rooms, for multiple reasons. For safeguarding reasons, yes. To protect the girls. But also to protect him from malicious allegations of improper behaviour. And also for the dignity and comfort of everyone concerned.

Who else is not allowed in the girls' changing rooms? Well, the boys, obviously. Again, for reasons of safety. We don't think that all or even most teenage boys are going to sexually assault their female classmates, but we know it's a risk so we keep these spaces single sex. As with the male teacher, it's not just for their safety, but also for their dignity and comfort. Because for teenagers going through puberty (at differing rates), it's often uncomfortable enough getting changed in front of classmates of the same sex, without adding classmates of the opposite sex into the mix.

Then there's girls and women with particular vulnerabilities to consider. Conservative Muslims whose religion simply will not permit them to be in a shared changing space with members of the opposite sex and will be forced to self exclude if they cannot trust that these spaces are single sex.

Survivors of rape and sexual assault who are afraid of men and feel unavoidably triggered by the presence of a male bodied person. This may be the case in a changing room, but is even more the case in a rape support group, where, by definition, every single person there will be a rape survivor, and have been raped by a male person. The Equality Act even recognises that this is one situation where it would be both legal and justifiable to exclude even trans women who have a gender recognition certificate from a women only service. It's written there, in the legislation, in black and white, as an example of when service providers should be able to rely on the single sex exemptions. And yet rape crisis organisations up and down the country are refusing to provide female only services and insisting that everything must be fully trans inclusive because the existence of female only support groups suggests that trans women aren't real women and is therefore inherently transphobic.

Having empathy for the women and girls in these situations, the women and girls who were the victims of the events described in the post you found unconvincing, does not require you to judge all trans people by the actions of the very worst of them. It simply requires you to think about why single sex spaces and services exist(ed) in the first places and what the potential consequences are if you make them mixed sex. And the presence of even one member of the opposite sex, however they identify, makes that space a mixed sex space as far as many of its users are concerned.

It does bear repeating that all of the things in the second post are things that have actually happened. So if your position is that most trans people are harmless, whilst I would agree with that, I would be interested to know exactly how many women and girls you think it's OK to harm before we say there's a problem and we need to find a better way of balancing everyone's rights and needs. A way of accommodating trans people without compromising the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls.

I would conclude by pointing out, as well, that from a safeguarding perspective, if you take the view that anyone who says they are a woman is one, literally anyone can be a woman just by saying they are. There's no purity test. When we allow trans women into women's spaces we're not asking for proof that they are using cross sex hormones or have had their penis removed, or plan to do so, or have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a doctor, or have obtained a gender recognition certificate or are in the process of getting one. Such a system would be unworkable anyway. We are taking it on trust that they are genuine.

And the problem with that is twofold. Firstly, they may not be genuine. If your nice trans friends can walk freely into women's spaces then so can Isla Bryson or even Levi Bellfield the day they get released from prison. There is no practical way of allowing some biologically male people into women's spaces and excluding the rest. So if you are letting some in you are actually letting all of them in, whether they are trans or not and whether they are dangerous or not. And secondly, even if they are genuine, the female users of that space have no way of knowing that. For a Muslim or a rape survivor, whether they are genuine or not may not even make any difference because their presence is still enough to ensure that she can no longer use that space. And for the rest of us, we just have to be on our guard, managing our own discomfort, not wanting to be transphobic but at the same time hyper aware that someone in that space is male and can therefore physically overpower and assault us should they choose to do so, and hoping that that is not their intention.

Ultimately, single sex spaces exist for a particular purpose, and allowing anyone to identify into them regardless of their sex completely undermines that purpose. You may as well make all spaces mixed sex and be done with it. At least then you'd have to acknowledge that you are excluding women who can't use mixed sex spaces from participating fully in society, instead of pretending that that is not what you are doing.

If you are a good faith poster, I hope my reply has given you some pause for thought. But honestly, I am just shaking my head at anyone who can read the second post in this thread - which is simply listing factual examples of things that have happened to women and girls - and dismiss it as bigotry. That, to me, is an indication that you don't see the problem because don't want to see it and are doing everything you can to make sure you don't see it.

whiteroseredrose · 02/08/2024 06:39

One of my friends has always been very 'kind' TWAW. But we have now reached an agreement that maybe they aren't. Our discussion was around safe spaces for women.

As a probation officer she agreed that 75% of violent crime and 95 or 97% of sexual crime is committed by men. ONS statistics I think.

This is certainly not all men. But unfortunately we can't tell who is a danger just by looking.

From my genetics studies waaay back in the 1980s one thing that stuck with me was that some very violent male criminals actually had XYY chromosomes. So the Y chromosome is significant.

We agreed that our lovely husbands could physically restrain us / physically hurt us if they chose and in the moment there would be very little we could do about it.

So even if a male that believes that they are female in their head, they are still anatomically, physiologically and genetically male so are no less of a danger to women than any male.

So while we agree that life can be difficult for men who feel that they are not stereotypically masculine and identify more with stereotypically feminine behaviours they should not be allowed into places where women are vulnerable. So not into changing rooms, prisons, women's hospital wards etc. (Because they aren't actually women!).

I personally think that men claiming to be women is bonkers bobbins but for the point of the discussion I took it gently!!

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