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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christian writer on drag: 'men portraying women as a sex clowns'

58 replies

Parisite · 01/08/2024 18:31

'There should be no place in any Christian tradition for drag... men portraying women as a sex clowns is an act of cruelty, and the opposite of progressive.'

Christian writer on drag in the Olympics opening ceremony, and the rise of the drag queen as a kind of redemptive hero in progressive Christianity.

www.flaneurnotes.com/post/dragging-the-seine

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Parisite · 02/08/2024 18:03

Murica · 02/08/2024 15:35

Thanks for this article, it'll help me express my feelings about drag more simply and clearly. I'll be sharing it.
I can't help but compare this writer with another being discussed recently.

Can you remember who the other writer was?

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Parisite · 02/08/2024 18:03

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/08/2024 14:32

I really enjoyed that article - the part where it describes 70s sexism such as seaside postcards and Carry On films having lived on in drag was a very apt observation and gave me something to think about. I also very much understand the reference made to the trope of the ex-Catholic joining a cult - I grew up in theocratic, Catholic-church dominated Ireland and have seen a lot of disillusioned devout Irish Catholics joining cults, or becoming extremely involved in identiarianism, as a reaction to the exposure of scandals in the Irish Catholic Church.

So interesting that your own experience from Ireland bears out what he says in the article.

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mathanxiety · 02/08/2024 17:39

@DeanElderberry I sincerely hope that's the case.

DeanElderberry · 02/08/2024 16:35

not all of us, @mathanxiety, not all of us

mathanxiety · 02/08/2024 16:32

And I'd like to add, Irish women are obviously kept firmly in their place, their interests ignored. Plus ca change...

mathanxiety · 02/08/2024 16:29

Excellent article - thank you, OP.

The Irish have exchanged one dogma for another.

The team allegiance has changed but it's the same sport, to make an Olympic analogy. "Shut up, I am right and you are an [insert Latin noun] phobe/ heretic and either way you're going straight to hell" is the name of the game.

DeanElderberry · 02/08/2024 16:15

I think the wholesale acceptance of gender ideology by the Irish media is also a legacy of people being trained to be conformist when young. Not a universal Irish Catholic experience btw, some of us were raised to be stroppy and argue things out. I wonder is it a class thing? Mercy girls and Brothers boys fighting back back against authority, Sacred Heart and Spiritan pupils basking in a sense of effortless social superiority because they toe the line.

Murica · 02/08/2024 15:35

Thanks for this article, it'll help me express my feelings about drag more simply and clearly. I'll be sharing it.
I can't help but compare this writer with another being discussed recently.

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/08/2024 14:32

I really enjoyed that article - the part where it describes 70s sexism such as seaside postcards and Carry On films having lived on in drag was a very apt observation and gave me something to think about. I also very much understand the reference made to the trope of the ex-Catholic joining a cult - I grew up in theocratic, Catholic-church dominated Ireland and have seen a lot of disillusioned devout Irish Catholics joining cults, or becoming extremely involved in identiarianism, as a reaction to the exposure of scandals in the Irish Catholic Church.

GrouchyKiwi · 02/08/2024 12:59

Excellent article, thank you. I've had similar discussions (not nearly so eloquent) with many of my fellow Christians, some of whom were very much of the opinion of the progressive Christians quoted here, so it's really good to read such a clearly put piece on the issue.

Catsmere · 02/08/2024 12:29

Happyinarcon · 02/08/2024 11:59

I dunno, I used to love old school drag with Edna everage and Lilly savage. It’s gotten weird but it wasn’t always nuts like everything is now

I loathe Edna Everage. Whatever Humphries might claim, he was always mocking women with that character, whether the original "Moonee Ponds housewife" version or the later iteration. It was always punching down, mocking women in particular, not Australian society in general. He didn't need to get into drag if that was what he wanted to do.

Grammarnut · 02/08/2024 12:22

A good article. Apart from anything else it pointed out that a parody of the Last Supper (la Cene) was intended as 'cene' is a pun on 'Seine'. The entire thing was unacceptable in so many ways. And what was Smurf-Dionysius doing there? Everyone on display was a man pretending to be a woman - which maybe fits with the IOC saying it is entirely okay for a man (XY chromosomes) to batter women boxers?
No wonder the Allfather (Zeus, Wotan) peed on it all.

Happyinarcon · 02/08/2024 11:59

I dunno, I used to love old school drag with Edna everage and Lilly savage. It’s gotten weird but it wasn’t always nuts like everything is now

CocoapuffPuff · 02/08/2024 11:49

The bit about drag being men as sex clowns really hit home. Drag revolts me. Its a revulsion that comes from deep inside, nauseating and deeply troubling. I can see clearly how much drag artists truly despise women. It's a total mystery to me why some women don't see it.

Parisite · 02/08/2024 11:23

ghostofadog · 02/08/2024 11:04

Great article, thanks. Ive always had quite a visceral dislike of drag but struggled to articulate quite why - this sets it out very clearly. I'm not religious but I found the Christian perspective really interesting too.

I agree. Hope some people aren't put off reading it by the fact that it starts with an in-house disagreement between Christians.

The issues it raises are massive, and affect all of us in this culture. Particularly the question of how far we speak out when we find something offensive and demeaning, but people think we're the ones at fault or being controversial.

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ghostofadog · 02/08/2024 11:04

Great article, thanks. Ive always had quite a visceral dislike of drag but struggled to articulate quite why - this sets it out very clearly. I'm not religious but I found the Christian perspective really interesting too.

lcakethereforeIam · 02/08/2024 10:52

Amongst all the other stuff I'm glad he torpedoes the lie that the resemblance to the last supper was a coincidence that the MSN has allowed to go completely unchallenged.

Parisite · 02/08/2024 10:36

LeFromage · 02/08/2024 07:45

Thanks for that OP - a really well written well informed well argued article. The references to Ru Paul’s drag show and show contestant quotes underlined the hatred of women and punching down very eloquently

Yes. When you see those kind of quotes isolated from the hyped-up atmosphere and hilarity of the drag show, you see quite how dehumanising they are.

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Catsmere · 02/08/2024 08:00

Parisite · 02/08/2024 05:52

Thanks for quoting the fuller quote! Glad you found the article helpful.

It was indeed - I am only culturally Christian so have no contact with various lines of thought in the denominations about the subject.

LeFromage · 02/08/2024 07:45

Thanks for that OP - a really well written well informed well argued article. The references to Ru Paul’s drag show and show contestant quotes underlined the hatred of women and punching down very eloquently

swayingpalmtree · 02/08/2024 07:11

Excellent article and I completely agree with him.

LostittoBostik · 02/08/2024 07:06

I am neither a Christian nor a drag critic but this is an excellent piece of writing, very thoughtful and incisive, so thank you for sharing

Nothingeverything · 02/08/2024 07:01

TempestTost · 01/08/2024 23:01

Churches trying to be cool is usually very embarrassing, failing to be anything approaching cool.

Look at some CofE contemporary service with puppets and rainbows and bad poetry and middle aged people doing liturgical dance, vs something like an Orthodox service, and I think it's pretty clear which might actually be considered "cool".

Wholeheartedly agree. Anyone trying to get the church on trend is destined for failure imo. People want spirituality, depth not a dumbed-down show.

Jjiillkkf · 02/08/2024 06:59

Excellent article and looks like a fantastic blog, thanks for sharing I look forward to having the time to dig in!

Parisite · 02/08/2024 05:52

Catsmere · 02/08/2024 00:06

Very good article, thanks for posting.

I think this part is worth quoting in full rather than part:

There should be no place in any Christian tradition for drag.

To say that is not to be prudish, humourless, homophobic, or a dupe of the far right. It’s simply to say that men portraying women as sex clowns is an act of cruelty, and the opposite of progressive.

Thanks for quoting the fuller quote! Glad you found the article helpful.

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