I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

You can't disagree that they are male, or that the test picks up AIS, I assume?

They are taller than women and are overrepresented on podiums in women's events relative to their incidence in the population.
They do have an advantage, just not as big as other men do over women.

As males, they belong in competition with other males.
Women should not be pushed out of competitions to make space for males.

The vast majority of women of an age to enter sporting competitions do menstruate - but no men do. CAIS males will never have to go on the pill, or have a pregnancy scare. Or cope with the effect of the menstrual cycle on the female body.

It is defensible once you've seen what the edge cases lead to.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We are now in hell.

It has to be XX only.

@sadabouti I dont think that people with CAIS are male, or would consider themselves to be male. You obviously do, and that is a difference in understanding between us. I think I would say that males are created by the response to testosterone, you apparently think that XY is male, even if the Y cannot be 'heard' by the body. I expect that we will have to agree to disagree.

It’s irrelevant what the advantage or disadvantage is.

‘not having a male advantage’ is not being female. It’s just being a less than average male. That’s unfortunate. I get it. I’m probably a naturally less than average female. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

CAIS individuals wouldn't be able to compete against males on a fair basis.

My heart hurt for her, the years of blood sweat and tears she has poured into her sport. To be an Olympian is a dream I’m sure many athletes share. I am just so disgusted by the IOC. I cannot put into words how much rage I feel at the fuckers. Even if they change the rules they can never give this moment back to her, she earned this and they stole it.

I think the jury is out as to what extent it is an advantage in sport.

But sport is an area that does need a fairly straightforward, hard line.

It doesn't follow that we would have to use the same line in all other parts of life with those with CAIS if it was the line in elite sport.

But they are still male aren't they. They can can compete in the male category. They don't want to do that though because they would lose, as they are not really Olympic level athletes without leverage their maleness in the female division. In boxing, of all sports, with its understanding of weight divisions, it is mental that the IOC can't see this.

Sex does not "run the gamut", that is just complete nonsense.

@inlaw - i understand that picking XY as your line in the sand is appealingly simple, but I don't think that classifying people with CAIS as having biological male advantage is defensible,

This was on Twix, it's from March 23, this is not a woman.

@Snowypeaks - I disagree with you - you are extending the arguement beyond the advantages of male puberty - the effect of the testosterone on muscle and bome mass, lung and heart etc.

. Arguing that not having periods means you shouldn't compete in female sports would presumably exclude a lot of female athletes with low BMI whomdon't menstruate

Yes they should. Because they aren’t female. It’s unlucky. The same way I was born as a short woman and not a female Ussain Bolt.

Life is tough.

The cheek swab does pick up CAIS athletes.
They are male. They have advantages over women:

Taller on average than women. (Height is an advantage in many sports .)
No periods so can train every day the same and not at increased risk of soft tissue injury due to the secretion of the hormone relaxin at a certain part of the menstrual cycle.

I saw that in the bbc report but thought it was him attempting to get a handshake out of her (which she was obviously not prepared to do, and good on her).

Really? This is madness

I thought there had been a statement that this wouldn’t happen but if they just allow passports I don’t get it

It's a real difficulty, in part because the major sporting bodies for years have been trying to fudge what is going on.

And news media as well, many have deliberately given false information to the public. For example, calling Semenya a "woman with naturally high testosterone." That's frankly just a lie, but it's based on the idea that being a woman is something you identify into being.

Now what you find is that a lot of people, including writers in the media, are actually quite confused about the science. And then some media sources still are deliberately trying to obscure what is going on.

Add to that, the IOC has banned media from talking about it, so there are potential implications for news sources who don't toe the line, like losing access to press passes etc.

What we've had to end up doing is looking carefully a what is reported and reading between the lines. For example, Semenya was told he could compete as a female if he reduced testosterone levels. That rule would only apply to someone with a specific DSD, so we can tell pretty clearly what kind of DSD is involved.

It's similar with these competitors in boxing. We know they were tested and had XY chromosomes, and were disqualified. So we know that means they have a DSD of a certain type. The IOC claim that they are women because their passports say "F" is pretty fucking irrelevant.

What about people with complete androgen insensitivity? That lack the receptors to procees testosterone? Whatever their levels of testosterone they will not go theough male puberty. They are XY chromosomally, with a blind-ending vagina BUT as I understand it 'sportingly' and externally phenotypically female, although typically tall. Should they be excluded from female sport?

People with partial androgen insensitivity - thought to be female at birth, who go through male puberty, to a greater or lesser extent, like I understand Semenya, or perhaps these boxers, clearly have a male advantage. But the chromosomal test doesnt help with CAIS.

Sex runs the gamut...

It really, really, doesn't!

It beyond madness now. In a world increasingly dominated by male violence on women and girls - it’s pretty much a fucking pandemic; they think it’s appropriate to make it an Olympic sport!

Are they fucking kidding!!! They are just taking piss now. I have no idea why we are standing for this. All women should refuse to race or run or swim or box against these people until they are removed.