Mandated to give my ten year old's pronouns - how to respond

I speak two languages fluently, including one that has gendered nouns (not my native tongue) and can get along in three other languages, though don’t use two of them regularly.

As I said before, no, I don’t have to remember a variance in someone’s pronouns very often as it’s actually not something you encounter all that much in day-to-day life, with the probable exception being high schools where teens have made it a bit of a thing to experiment with pronouns, as teens are wont to do (experiment).

I don’t know what to tell you. It’s just not that hard and most people I talk to about pronouns don’t seem to find it that hard either. It seems to be mostly a straw man created by people who don’t like people to use pronouns other than those of their birth sex.

Universities are terrible for this. You'd think that Phoenix vs OU would have sharpened some minds, but no...

If the people behind this request are fully committed to gender ideology, they will mark you down as a TERF

If the people behind this request are downing the Koolaid by the quart, they would know to make the form field optional already.

Actually, in my institution, we are told to not ask for ‘preferred’ pronouns anymore as that is not sufficiently inclusive. Now it’s just pronouns. The goal post has shifted just ever so slightly.

@Gofastboatsmojito You can write what you want, but what are you hoping the response will be?

If the people behind this request are fully committed to gender ideology, they will mark you down as a TERF, and maybe even take it out on your DD in subtle ways.

On the other hand, if they are just trying to "keep up with modern times" and think it's "nice and considerate and inclusive" to ask about pronouns, they will probably be a bit disconcerted and not know how to respond. Now, maybe making people who do that uncomfortable is part of the way forward (although as a PP noted, the gender/pronouns thing seems to be on the way out anyway), but that's a choice you would be making.

It is, after all, only a hobby. Do you want to fight this war (with which, by the way, I am in broad sympathy) on this particular front? One can make a case for that (slippery slope, thin end of the wedge, etc), but one can also make a case for keeping one's powder dry, bigger fish to fry, etc. There's a veritable smorgasbord of applicable metaphors. 😉

Here's a test you could use, perhaps. If you get an unsatisfactory reply, or no reply at all, are you prepared to tell DD "Sorry, but you're not going to that club?", and explain the reasons to her? That would be a principled way to go about it.

I'm not suggesting that any particular course of action is right or wrong. But if you want to make an issue out of it, you might want to have an endgame plan in place, because DD will certainly pick up on your dislike of the place if you aren't happy with their response. (Also, statistically, it's pretty likely that 100% of the boys will be he/him and 100% of girls will be she/her anyway.🤷‍♂️)

Ah I see! I’m sorry I misunderstood you

I do take your point. I think the wording I suggested would answer my prime objections which are that: 1) belief in gender identity should not be a default 'setting' and 2) that children should never be forced to comply with it. But fine if you disagree!

(edited for typo)

I said that the whole concept of preferred pronouns is nonsensical. Not that referring to obvious men as "she" wouldn't be confusing.

Flousime- I disagree. It doesn’t need mentioning at all. Why should anyone need to explain that they will address children in the entirely normal and grammatically correct way? In most such forms there is a space to give details of any additional needs / health issues and the person’s specific request regarding people using particular pronouns can be mentioned there or in a separate email.

My objection would be that the mandatory question and the wording of it imply all children have a gender identity as well as a sex.

I would suggest that they replace the question with something like:
'We use birth sex pronouns with all children unless we are directed otherwise, and in writing, by parents.
If you are happy for us to use birth sex pronouns with your child then please leave this section blank and go on to the next question.
''If you wish us to use pronouns other than birth sexed ones with your child then you must state them here. (Follow with free text / dropdown box / both.)
Please note that we will not direct other children to use preferred pronouns.'

The wording may need tightening up but that's the gist.

At this point I have neither the time nor energy to keep up with the mental gymnastics of people trying to justify that 'my daughter has no gender or pronouns' isn't a confusing statement to make when trying to complain that these shouldn't be mandatory fields in a registration form.

A complaint that I agree with, btw. I just think it could be more clearly worded since there's potential for misinterpretation (as this thread has demonstrated).

Enjoy your debate 😃

Thank you.

Using wrong sex pronouns is not really about linguistics, or cognitive dissonance and I think arguments get sidetracked sometimes. Currently, it is about signalling support of an ideology.

No, those are my adverbs, not adverbs I'm ascribing to you.

If someone asked me for my adverbs, I'd give cleverly, angrily, and idiotically. That was the joke.

I completely understand your reaction now that I know that you thought that I was calling you those things.

But I thought you said respecting preferred pronouns made no sense. Now not doing it is confusing

You could use wrong gender pronouns for me if you wanted (I'm male so she, her etc). You could also use past tense verbs for talking about events in the future, or put capital letters in the middle of every third word. People would just find you confusing to communicate with though.

Sorry. That was rude of me and I apologise for that. I do also think referring to me as an idiot for having a different opinion to you was rude of you but two wrongs etc.

So I could use whatever pronouns I wanted for you then? I could use he/him if you’re female? I’m female and wouldn’t be happy with someone using he/him for me but if you don’t mind that’s great for you

Calphurnia and running. No, I don’t ‘prefer’ that people call me she, apart from anything I’m unlikely to be there so I won’t know (it’s really rude to talk use ‘she’ when the subject is present). It doesn’t affect me at all, I know I’m a woman and if other people can’t tell that I’m a woman that’s their problem, not mine. they’d be wrong to call me ‘he’ though, and whoever they are talking to will think they are very odd.

Presumably everyone has pronouns that they prefer to be referred to by though? Isn't that what we're talking about here?

Weird way to put it - and not preferred no - just linguistically correct. If you refer to me by anything other than 'she' when speaking English you're just wrong, as my sex is female.

Am I not allowed to tell jokes now?

I wasn't sure of the spelling and the proper way looked wrong.

Okay, you do you too, if it’s that much of an issue for you. I don’t feel super-oppressed by using “they” to refer to an “oppressor class” colleague or “non-oppressor class” friend, or “he” to refer to a friend’s late teen who has socially transitioned. That’s about the extent of the issue on my life… how does it affect yours?

Yep, I will. I do feel oppressed by having my language controlled to my detriment (both politically, and personally through the extra mental effort it takes to do so).

It affects my life because I have two children who might be affected by this, and because professionally I work in IT, where there is lower female representation, higher numbers of men who want me to call them 'she' (I've personally worked with 2), and use women's facilities.

And because most importantly, if I use 'she' for a man, I am colluding in him collecting the evidence he requires to get a GRC, which I absolutely will not do, as I think that falsifying identity documents is morally wrong and legally suspect.

Transgenderism is an ideology. That is to say that it is a system of ideas and beliefs. It is not evidence based. And lots and lots of people do not hold the ideas and beliefs of transgenderism. Instead, they agree with and hold ideas that come from evidence based science and concrete reality (and things like physics and biology[.

If you want an analogy one could compare transgenderism to creationism or to any other religious or faith based set of beliefs.

Asking a person what their pronouns are or they "have" is an act of ideology. It is therefore perfectly reasonable for a person who does not hold the beliefs of that ideology to decline to engage with the ideology and by consequence the question.

That is quite clearly what posters mean when they say that they do not "have" pronouns. They are saying that they do not wish to engage with an ideological set of beliefs that they do not hold and that are neither evidence based nor manifest in reality.

Which is fair enough if you are a fan of Article 9 of the Human Rights Act - Freedom of thought, belief and religion or of Article 10 which protects your right to hold your own opinions.

Many people may think that pronouns are not important because they are just words. But words are thoughts.

Yes I know what pronouns are thank you. I teach linguistics. You “have” pronouns as you “have” a name. If you prefer the term “use” that’s fine but it doesn’t actually make any difference. Everyone has/ uses pronouns so posters they don’t are ridiculous

Yeah of course.
Just like adverbs (or adjectives, nouns, prepositions etc.) they are a part of speech.
Just like adverbs, there are some that I prefer being used about me. For example I prefer incisively and athletically to stupidly and clumsily, but it's not really my choice how others choose to refer to me. Respecting preferred pronouns makes no more sense than respecting preferred adverbs.

Oh the irony. It’s spelled idiotically. And I’m not the one who doesn’t know what a pronoun is