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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mandated to give my ten year old's pronouns - how to respond

318 replies

Gofastboatsmojito · 29/07/2024 23:03

I've recently had to fill in a form for my daughter's hobby, she's joining a group to rehearse and perform which builds on the standard teaching class.

As part of this I had to fill in a form which asked for her gender and her preferred pronouns. She's 10 FFS, and her school luckily don't go in for teaching gender ideology, sticking to a more factual PSHE curriculum. So she hasn't got a gender or pronouns.

I've filled the form in because I don't want her to miss out on this further opportunity, and I have no reason to believe the group, which is council run, are gender ideologues. I think they're just trying to be modern / some secondary children also do this hobby so maybe there have been requests from older children's parents.

I'd like to email my contact, who I email relatively often, expressing why this question is problematic.

How does the below sound? I'd like to add something about Cass but I'm not sure what the best point to include woukd be at very grateful for your ideas.

Preferred pronouns is a mandatory field (with only 3 choices! She/her, He/him, They/them - not very inclusive) but ethnicity has about 5 different questions where you can choose an Asian ethnicity or n/a, a Black ethnicity or n/a, a White non-European ethnicity or n/a, White European, or just opt out entirely. Its a badly designed form tbh.

Thanks

I hope you don't mind a little bit of feedback. I'm not happy being asked for my child's gender or pronouns. She doesn't have a gender or pronouns, she has a sex (female).

Asking for pronouns is akin to asking for a religion without giving the option of 'none', so I respectfully suggest you consider adding 'no preferred pronouns' or similar to the list of options, or adding an 'opt out' as you do for ethnicity

OP posts:
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Calphurnia6 · 31/07/2024 09:07

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/07/2024 08:55

Since when was it agreed that being accidentally mis sexed was such a massively huge irrecoverable incident?

as opposed to you know life???

one of my sisters ex bf saw a photo of me sitting down from the back when I had really short hair - he said “who’s that bloke?”

oddly I didn’t fall to the floor wailing about literal violence & how I couldn’t cope. I just laughed and said “that’s me” he went red and apologised and then life went on as normal

I agree with the OP that this should not be a mandatory question on a registration form (especially one for children), however, being mis-sexed can absolutely be a humiliated experience, especially as a child.

I was once publicly mistaken for a boy in my early teens and it stuck with me for a very long time, as I was already self-conscious about my appearance compared to my peers (I never felt as pretty as them, and this comment validated that).

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/07/2024 08:55

Since when was it agreed that being accidentally mis sexed was such a massively huge irrecoverable incident?

as opposed to you know life???

one of my sisters ex bf saw a photo of me sitting down from the back when I had really short hair - he said “who’s that bloke?”

oddly I didn’t fall to the floor wailing about literal violence & how I couldn’t cope. I just laughed and said “that’s me” he went red and apologised and then life went on as normal

Floisme · 31/07/2024 08:52

My reading of the op is that the form already asks about sex (although they call it gender) and that preferred pronouns are a separate question, so I'm not sure what these concerns about accidental mis-sexing are based on.

Apollo365 · 31/07/2024 08:38

Yes it might be obvious for your own particular child, but this is not the case for all children.
Add into the mix a unisex name and you have an upset child being misgendered - easily avoided with a pronoun started on a form.

Apollo365 · 31/07/2024 08:37

The reason I am pro stating pronouns is - this helps children (with children it’s not so easy at a glance to tell) who aren’t clearly boy or girl.
so if you are a long haired boy mistaken for ‘she’ a parent had stated ‘he’ on the intake form and it stops the child having to explain themselves.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 31/07/2024 03:10

This doesn't have to be met with immediate aggression?

Maybe they've had an embarrassing moment when an adult called a long haired boy "she" or a short haired girl "he"?
My mate has a name that could be male or female, and when he had long hair he was often mistaken for a girl - could this be a way that they are trying to avoid this? Could it be that they've borrowed some resources from another company and not looked over them thoroughly?

not everyone thinks as hard about gender as mumsnetters, and sometimes its actually more productive to just have a little chat rather than bowling in with a Cass Report in a ring binder......

PTSDBarbiegirl · 31/07/2024 00:46

Changingplace · 29/07/2024 23:11

Only change is I’d say, ‘I’d like to give some feedback’ - you don’t need to sound almost apologetic for telling them this.

I agree.

Gofastboatsmojito · 31/07/2024 00:44

I don't know what your son looks like so I can't answer that question.

If your son gets mistaken for a girl because of the way he looks and it bothers him then absolutely one option for him is to declare preferred pronouns. That's for you and him to discuss.

I answered your question which was something like 'how would your daughter feel if she were called he' and so I told you my best guess about how she'd feel, given there has been no precedent and it would be very unlikely indeed that any teacher would call her He in genuine error.

You're trying to make out I'm a small minded bigot for guessing that my daughter might dismiss an adult teacher deliberately mis-sexing her, but I am not. I am being as bog standard mainstream as I possibly can in stating this.

It's a pointless argument you're trying to have with me all I'm disengaging. Goodnight

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 31/07/2024 00:33

Gofastboatsmojito · 31/07/2024 00:15

Anyone who deliberately calls a very obvious girl 'he' without any prompting is trying to be provocative or prove a point.

Given this is a taught hobby group then the fictional person doing this wound be a teacher.

It is clearly a red flag is a teacher unprompted decides to call a ten year old girl 'he' in front of a roomful of her peers. Stop being ridiculous and pretending this is anything other than unexpected behaviour in the eyes of an average ten year old, or the eyes of anyone else tbh.

I see what you're doing and it's not working.

I'm not sure what you "think I'm doing", could you clarify what my supposed agenda is?

Your hobby group teacher might well never call your daughter 'he', however they theoretically might call my son 'she' if they didn't have information to the contrary. Would you assume they were only doing so because they were weird, provocative or trying to prove some kind of point?

Gofastboatsmojito · 31/07/2024 00:15

Anyone who deliberately calls a very obvious girl 'he' without any prompting is trying to be provocative or prove a point.

Given this is a taught hobby group then the fictional person doing this wound be a teacher.

It is clearly a red flag is a teacher unprompted decides to call a ten year old girl 'he' in front of a roomful of her peers. Stop being ridiculous and pretending this is anything other than unexpected behaviour in the eyes of an average ten year old, or the eyes of anyone else tbh.

I see what you're doing and it's not working.

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 23:49

Gofastboatsmojito · 30/07/2024 23:39

She's ten. I'm guessing what she'd think.
I don't think it's unreasonable that a ten year old girl with a relatively standard girl's name, who has not asked otherwise, woukd think it weird if someone out of tje blue referred to her as 'he'

Claiming anything else is a bit of a reach don't you think?

Your daughter might think it's odd if she's very conventionally female in her name and appearance. I think the rest of the adjectives you used were a reach and reflective of your own negative mindset.

Having pronouns noted for your child might seem an unnecessary overreach for you/her. For others, myself included, it's actually helpful info for people to know, and my child isn't even transgender.

Gofastboatsmojito · 30/07/2024 23:39

CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 22:20

Why do you assume that anyone who gets a pronoun wrong is 'weird', 'silly', 'ridiculous', 'has a problem' or is 'a douchebag'.

As mentioned upthread, my son has been misgendered repeatedly through his life for no apparent reasons other than having longish hair, wearing purple fairly regularly and perhaps having lovely dark eyelashes. To me he appears to be pretty clearly male but obviously other people struggle to discern this easily. They are just mistaken, there is nothing sinister, stupid or aggressive about their mistake.

She's ten. I'm guessing what she'd think.
I don't think it's unreasonable that a ten year old girl with a relatively standard girl's name, who has not asked otherwise, woukd think it weird if someone out of tje blue referred to her as 'he'

Claiming anything else is a bit of a reach don't you think?

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 23:05

lunar1 · 30/07/2024 22:50

I've not really come across as anyone who has answered back to be honest, maybe it's my resting bitch face.

Maybe it's them being startled at the aggression and negative presumption in your question and deciding not to engage with someone who is clearly just looking to pick a fight?

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 22:52

The evangelicals are out tonight providing us with their scriptures to learn!

lunar1 · 30/07/2024 22:50

I've not really come across as anyone who has answered back to be honest, maybe it's my resting bitch face.

CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 22:42

What gives you the right to ask this information, is your intention to force people who might not be ready do declare their pronouns publicly to live a lie because you're nosey?

How do people usually respond to you when you do this?

And what do you say if they say something quite reasonable in response, like:

"Oh! Not at all. I was asking because some people have preferred pronouns these days and it makes them feel included/comfortable when asked. I'm not intending to force anyone to 'live a lie'. I would think if someone is not ready to be 'out' as transgender, they already encounter situations where they privately feel misgendered, but choose not to 'out themselves' in those situations too. And asking them about pronouns now hopefully makes them feel safer in eventually coming out when they are ready."

lunar1 · 30/07/2024 22:32

I have never given pronouns when asked, I work in a field where I'd just lose my business if I got labelled a TERF. So instead I just make anyone asking intensely uncomfortable. Along the lines of...

What gives you the right to ask this information, is your intention to force people who might not be ready do declare their pronouns publicly to live a lie because you're nosey?

It's not what I want to say, but I don't have JKR's bank balance and have a mortgage to pay.

So it's my compromise, make them squirm in the hope it will stop them fucking asking. I really wish I was braver, and that it was safe for the average Woman to have a voice.

CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 22:20

Gofastboatsmojito · 30/07/2024 22:12

Been away from MN all day so apologies for the slow reply

If someone called my daughter He she would be amused and confused. She'd probably call them 'weird' (fave word at the moment for anything remotely unexpected) and wonder why they were being so silly when she's clearly female. I don't believe she'd mind, we've taught her pretty well that if someone says something clearly ridiculous like that (or eg calls her fat or stupid etc) then it's them that has the problem not her. I think she'd fit this in that category and assume they're being a douche bag for their own reasons.

Why do you assume that anyone who gets a pronoun wrong is 'weird', 'silly', 'ridiculous', 'has a problem' or is 'a douchebag'.

As mentioned upthread, my son has been misgendered repeatedly through his life for no apparent reasons other than having longish hair, wearing purple fairly regularly and perhaps having lovely dark eyelashes. To me he appears to be pretty clearly male but obviously other people struggle to discern this easily. They are just mistaken, there is nothing sinister, stupid or aggressive about their mistake.

Gofastboatsmojito · 30/07/2024 22:14

samarrange · 30/07/2024 15:20

@Gofastboatsmojito You can write what you want, but what are you hoping the response will be?

If the people behind this request are fully committed to gender ideology, they will mark you down as a TERF, and maybe even take it out on your DD in subtle ways.

On the other hand, if they are just trying to "keep up with modern times" and think it's "nice and considerate and inclusive" to ask about pronouns, they will probably be a bit disconcerted and not know how to respond. Now, maybe making people who do that uncomfortable is part of the way forward (although as a PP noted, the gender/pronouns thing seems to be on the way out anyway), but that's a choice you would be making.

It is, after all, only a hobby. Do you want to fight this war (with which, by the way, I am in broad sympathy) on this particular front? One can make a case for that (slippery slope, thin end of the wedge, etc), but one can also make a case for keeping one's powder dry, bigger fish to fry, etc. There's a veritable smorgasbord of applicable metaphors. 😉

Here's a test you could use, perhaps. If you get an unsatisfactory reply, or no reply at all, are you prepared to tell DD "Sorry, but you're not going to that club?", and explain the reasons to her? That would be a principled way to go about it.

I'm not suggesting that any particular course of action is right or wrong. But if you want to make an issue out of it, you might want to have an endgame plan in place, because DD will certainly pick up on your dislike of the place if you aren't happy with their response. (Also, statistically, it's pretty likely that 100% of the boys will be he/him and 100% of girls will be she/her anyway.🤷‍♂️)

Edited

This is a good point.

I suppose best case scenario I'm expecting them to reply saying something along the lines of 'thanks for your comment. We added this question in after requests from parents but I can see that omitting an opt-out means some parents haven't got a choice which works for them so I'll pass your suggestion onto the relevant team to consider for future iterations'

OP posts:
Gofastboatsmojito · 30/07/2024 22:12

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 30/07/2024 08:39

My daughter does not have preferred pronouns. There are sex based pronouns which it is obvious most people would use for her because she is female, but she has not chosen these and she has not stated how she wishes others to talk about her in the third person

So would she be happy to be called "he"?

Been away from MN all day so apologies for the slow reply

If someone called my daughter He she would be amused and confused. She'd probably call them 'weird' (fave word at the moment for anything remotely unexpected) and wonder why they were being so silly when she's clearly female. I don't believe she'd mind, we've taught her pretty well that if someone says something clearly ridiculous like that (or eg calls her fat or stupid etc) then it's them that has the problem not her. I think she'd fit this in that category and assume they're being a douche bag for their own reasons.

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 22:00

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 21:49

There aren't any ways of talking about people who are pretending to be the opposite sex that makes sense.

LOL okay so it seems you're determined to be upset no matter what grammar is used, which makes your objection to it on the basis of the word 'have' seem a little disingenuous.

Werweisswohin · 30/07/2024 21:54

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 21:36

The definition of have and has is possess, own, or hold.
"he had a new car and a boat"

There is no sense of "having" pronouns.

I think everyone else knows exactly what I meant. 🤣

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 21:49

There aren't any ways of talking about people who are pretending to be the opposite sex that makes sense.

CheekyHobson · 30/07/2024 21:42

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 21:36

The definition of have and has is possess, own, or hold.
"he had a new car and a boat"

There is no sense of "having" pronouns.

Would you be less upset if the question was “What pronouns would you like others to use for you?”

Hepwo · 30/07/2024 21:36

Werweisswohin · 30/07/2024 19:36

Eh? I didn't say people owned them or carried them about with them.
Everyone has them in the sense of how we refer to them, unless we want to sound ridiculous and use their name repeatedly. 🫡🫡🫡

The definition of have and has is possess, own, or hold.
"he had a new car and a boat"

There is no sense of "having" pronouns.