olympics question

He was about twice the age of the other competitors.

And even without winning he did damage by preventing an actual woman (from a much more disadvantage background than Hubbard) from qualifying for an Olympic place.

Yeah, been there and got the T-shirt! I was told on another forum that because I have PCOS I am only "technically" a woman due to high testosterone levels and therefore exactly the same as a transwoman.

And that I'm intersex.

You know, hiking up those very useful DSD figures for the "cause".
Can't have facts getting in the way can we?

Linda Blade's take on it. She (rightly IMO) blames the sports authorities for not having strict consistent guidelines and requirements for sex verification.

According to this nytimes article, it appears that a few years ago the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) undertook due diligence and did the “gender testing.”
The result showed elevated “natural levels” of T, not disclosing why (XY DSD?), and would not allow Banda on their national team at that time.
But FAZ drew so much criticism for trying to protect the female category (zero back-up from #FIFA!) that they have now relented and allowed Banda to play in #Paris2024 .

Here’s the article: https://nytimes.com/athletic/3426458/2022/07/18/barbra-banda-womens-football/

It is sad, indeed, that global sports authorities have not established standardized sex verification screening so that such questionable cases are quickly dealt with. Absent this protocol, rumours and suspicions spread. It is horrible for the athlete in question. At the same time, the lack of decisive action potentially exposes female players to unsafe and unfair competition.

SUMMARY: It is weak, indecisive sport leadership that creates these types of “sad” situations. NOT those who question and call for verification.

https://x.com/coachblade/status/1817244899819012568

Oh joy. I'm sure of all us with PCOS are delighted to (yet again) be used as a 'gotcha' for males competing in a female sporting category.

As the graph up thread demonstrates, we (generally) have higher than average testosterone levels in the female range. Not the male range.

Wouldn’t it be great if those athletes who know they are male and not female athletes, respected female athletes and didn’t compete in female events. To me, that is ‘spite’. Censuring women discussing the legitimacy of those who choose their success as male people over female athletes can be considered spiteful as well.

Sadly yes there are Reduxx put out a story about two XY boxers , I mean boxing , males boxing in the female category.

The IOC seems to have been, so far successfully, keeping the trans competitors out of the news but now the games have started they will appear to be obvious. I believe there will be quite a few more being found. I honestly think we might be looking at 10/20 but I hope I'm wrong...

@SabrinaThwaite posted the chart upthread.

You're right, the "Semenya line" is the line that Semenya had to get to in order to be allowed to compete (but refused to do so, presumably because of a distaste for the feminising effects of the meds). just how far Semenya's unmedicated levels are to the right of that line has never been made public, but the answer must plainly be 'a long way', otherwise a very small quantity of meds, presumably with few side effects, would have been sufficient to get onside.

Even if you take fairness for women entirely out of the equation, expecting males to reduce their testosterone levels to 2.5 in order to compete feels like a completely unethical requirement. There is no acknowledgment of the long term harm this might do to a male body. I imagine many of these athletes would be reluctant to use oestrogen either because they are not even “transgender” they are just males with a medical condition that gives them a free pass into the female category.

Thank you for that chart - super clear.

Am I right in thinking that the 'Semenya line' isn't Semenya's natural testosterone level, but the level he had to reduce to with drugs to in order to compete?

More broadly, part of the issue all along is the (deliberately?) misleading reporting. For years we were told that Semenya was totally a woman with naturally high testosterone, ohhh well, nothing to see here. The BBC said it. All the news outlets said it. This turned out to be ... inaccurate.

So it invites a certain scepticism to see exactly the same language used to talk about Banda. And, indeed, the coverage of other athletes doesn't help either. I've read a number of articles about Quinn and Hiltz where it was impossible to work out whether they were infact male-bodied non-binary or female-bodied. I'm glad to see here they are in fact female, and competing in the correct sex-class, but it does illustrate the lack of clarity in reporting. Whilst I appreciate privacy around medical information is important, the lack of accuracy really doesn't help.

Wow! That shows it very well, not even an overlap in the distributions.

here's the chart again.

Last olympics there was a male New Zealand weight lifted competing in the women’s. Embarrassingly for him despite being a man competing against women he didn’t medal.

I had a quick look for times run by Mboma since returning to the sport. It seems that her initial time in her best event on coming back was 24.11s in the 200m, I could see why Namibia might think that someone with that kind of form wasn't worth taking to Paris given that a medallist will need to run under 22s.

I suppose maybe the new testosterone levels are too strict for a male athlete to comply with. 2.5 nmol/L is within the range for females, albeit not healthy females, per the chart posted upthread (page 2).

Hubbard was allowed to compete with 10 nmol/L (i.e. easily within the male range, albeit towards the lower end), Semenya with 5 nmol/L (i.e. in a no-man's land, at a level which would be very rare for either a man or woman to attain). it probably is very difficult for someone with healthy, functioning testes, like Mboma, to get down as low as 2.5 nmol/L and retain the full suite of male sporting advantages.

And even if Banda were downtrodden, that doesn't make what is happening to women's sport right or fair.

It's been said that Banda could be a woman with a DSD. No they couldn't because there aren't any DSDs affecting women that result in their particular biology.

This isn't spite, it's fact. Wanting something to be true doesn't mean that it is.

No spite. Just posters pointing out that what is happening is unfair to women. XX women. Who deserve better. Who deserve not to have their sporting dreams sacrificed on the altar of male entitlement.

What is odd is that you are so determined to place Banda in the downtrodden, hard-done-by category.

MessinaBloom

Is it because you think Semenya and Banda don't realise they are male?

Because Semenya absolutely does. And it's my understanding that this particular DSD would make it perfectly obvious at puberty that they are male.

Women's rights are spiteful.

Is that in the rules of misogyny?

Spite?

All right. I hate this spite.

I have already explained that the facts in all the links provided to you indicate that Banda can’t have the condition you theorise because if Banda did, he wouldn’t have failed. I have provided links. You don’t want to listen. It’s pointless.

Anyway, three males in women’s sport at the Olympics and counting.

A team who benefits from having a male player that currently can play under regulations but will not be allowed under future regulations, will generally be happy with having that male on the team if it lifts their performance.

I would not judge a team’s ‘happiness’ to have an advantage as being any confirmation that an athlete is ‘female’ under the current sporting organisation’s policies. All that means is that the policy is allowing some male athletes in to compete as women at this time. That is the only certainty you can take from Banda’s continued presence on that team.

'You also attacked her appearance. She's an athlete. She's also African. You're treading on very shaky ground there.'

Sinnerboy did not 'attack' anything. They pointed out that Banda, a male sexed person, looks like a male sexed person. You, on the other hand, appear to be implying that this very obvious male sexed person passes for an African woman.

@SinnerBoy

Fuck me, have you got cramp in your Google finger?

There's no need for rudeness. I asked for a source yesterday. I've seen nothing of substance back - even yours doesn't really say much I haven't seen already. She failed one gender test, but the article doesn't say what the test was, or the reason for failure. Her teams seem happy enough with her status.

You also attacked her appearance. She's an athlete. She's also African. You're treading on very shaky ground there.

This is the case.

I have been looking for the 'testosterone levels' that keep being mentioned as being in the CAF regulations, but cannot see anything. There are news articles saying that Banda says they would not suppress their testosterone levels, yet no statements have ever been made that I can find.

However, no female athlete has to 'suppress' their testosterone. Because female athletes do not have 'naturally high levels of testosterone' to suppress. Female athletes, who are not male people with DSDs, just need to be assessed as being female using modern medical technology and that is it, they never have to be involved with a discussion on testosterone suppression.

It was going to happen:

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes