olympics question

This thread is about males competing as females.

No one would blame you for thinking that they are actually females with high testosterone levels, because it's been marketed like that.

There is evidence that coaches have sought out boys with this DSD, precisely because their sex can appear ambiguous.

Nonetheless, they are male, and have a DSD that is male specific. With all the attendant advantages from being male.

Basically it's a con.

And a lot of people were conned. Caster Semenya was painted as a masculine looking woman who had to suffer the indignity of routinely showing her genitalia to prove her sex.

When, in fact, Samenya is a man with completely normal testosterone levels. Men with this DSD have fathered children.

As I said, this thread is about addressing that these men are unfairly trying to compete as women.

If you can find anything spiteful in women opposing that, then I'd love to hear it.

Or if you're going to say it's nothing to do with this thread, but other threads, then I for one, would conclude that you're in backtrack mode due to not understanding the situation.

My meaning, however it is wilfully misinterpreted, is this board is full of spite.

And it is misogyny because standing up for women and girls isn't "spite".

MessinaBloom

That isn't what I said. My meaning, however it is wilfully misinterpreted, is this board is full of spite. My intention wasn't misogyny either by using the word 'spite' - it's an apt description.
Semantics.

My meaning, however it is wilfully misinterpreted, is this board is full of spite.
Receipts, please.

Maybe you could clarify what you mean by ‘spite’?

Women here are not being deliberately hurtful or offensive by discussing the very real damage being done to women’s sports. Many of us are or have been athletes or have children that are athletes that this directly affects.

I think righteous indignation is a better description.

@Datun

Can you explain why you think it's spiteful to stop men competing in women's sport?

That isn't what I said. My meaning, however it is wilfully misinterpreted, is this board is full of spite. My intention wasn't misogyny either by using the word 'spite' - it's an apt description.

Can you explain how a female could exhibit male levels of testosterone?

Congenital diseases, even PCOS, some'

It seems to be worth repeating over and over, because obviously the chart isn’t being read. The point is that the range of any female with naturally high levels of testosterone (for female people) finishes around 5 nmol. This is not a healthy level which is considered to be approximately 2.5 as an upper limit.

Male people with healthy ranges of testosterone start far above 2.5. The two ranges have a significant gap.

The media using this fucked up falsehood of ‘women with naturally high testosterone’ have made the public think that female people can have a medical condition that causes them to have levels of testosterone that they simply don’t have naturally. Because the media and sports authorities are referring to males when the phrase is used for athletes.

Attempting to vilify people discussing these incidents where female athletes health and safety have been clearly put at risk is an emotionally manipulative tactic to stop discussion. These discussions at general public level have applied enough pressure to get some of the major sports to react to start to protect female sport. More discussions need to happen every day so that pressure is maintained on sport federations, governments and ultimately the IOC to protect female sports so no male people are in the female category.

Can you explain why you think it's spiteful to stop men competing in women's sport?

Her teams seem happy enough with her status.

We yes, they get the advantage of a male on their female team (the USAs all conquering national women's football team were beaten by high school boys, many high school boys beat the women's Olympics track medal winning times every year). They aren't the ones risking injury being tackled by a male. There are probably team mates who are unhappy changing in front of Banda but they will afraid to speak out because they have seen what happened to Riley Gaines.

If you’re thinking of Hiltz and Quinn then they’re both female (identifying as NB) and competing in the women’s events.

Not a problem.

I've never heard men described as spiteful, it's a silencing word used at women ime.

Anyway, will stop derailing...

None that are known of, although as a PP has pointed out there might be some in minor sports without a ban such as archery or shooting. There are two trans men competing, in football and middle distance. Both are, unsurprisingly, competing in the women’s categories.

edit: I meant shooting not fencing

Waitwhat23
cross posting!

I doubt if any woman with PCOS is offended by hearing that PCOS can cause higher levels of testosterone in women. It can. That's one of the symptoms.

What you suggested that PCOS can cause women to produce male levels of testosterone. That is different and simply untrue.

What offended them (I imagine) is the suggestion by some other people that PCOS symptoms made women with PCOS men, or practically men, or not women.

Women are not a hormone level. Women are adult human females.

Edited for grammar.

Women with PCOS cannot produce male levels of testosterone.

Which is what you were claiming.

If the 'one person' you are referring to is a male with a DSD, then yes, PCOS was brought in as an unpleasant 'gotcha' as it's completely irrelevant.

Disclaimer: Women with PCOS that were offended by the suggestion that PCOS can higher levels of testosterone, please be assured of what was meant.

Could. Not all. Does not mean they are intersex, nor have a DSD, or are remotely less a woman.

We are discussing one person here.

I think it is worth repeating this for our dear readers.

If Banda was female, including being a female with a DSD, Banda would have passed the sex verification test. However Banda has failed the test, so it is not spiteful to conclude that Banda is male with an undisclosed DSD that only male people can have.

You brought PCOS into the discussion originally by suggesting that women with this condition could naturally produce male levels of testosterone. I hope you now accept that that is a misapprehension.

WaitWhat was replying to this comment:
HootyMcBooby · Today 10:35
Yeah, been there and got the T-shirt! I was told on another forum that because I have PCOS I am only "technically" a woman due to high testosterone levels and therefore exactly the same as a transwoman. [My bold.]

And that I'm intersex.

'MessinaBloom · Yesterday 11:51

Can you explain how a female could exhibit male levels of testosterone?

Congenital diseases, even PCOS, some'

Righto, pal.

That isn't what I was doing, but do go ahead.

Exactly. Only women and girls get Polycystic Ovary Syndrome.

And DSDs are the consequence of conditions which affect the development of a foetus/embryo in utero.

And only a small minority of DSDs result in ambiguous genitalia anyway.

Yes, agree.

Plus, to puffyisgood
it probably is very difficult for someone with healthy, functioning testes [...] to get down as low as 2.5 nmol/L and retain the full suite of male sporting advantages.
Bit nitpicky of me, I know, but it's not so much that they lose their intrinsic male advantage, it's more that they feel like crap because their bodies are being starved of what they need. And they may suffer a loss of libido as well.

Oh God, I know. There seems to be a whole lot of 'loooook at meeeeee!!!'s on social media at the moment who seem to have decided that the new way to show how special and unique they are is to identify as 'intersex' because of their PCOS. As you say, it's a very useful way of bumping up those 'more common than redhead' bullshit claims.

Verity, the PCOS charity, has had to clarify that PCOS is not an 'intersex' condition.

And I can't believe how often I have to explain that women who have higher than average female levels of testosterone are not men. They are females with a female endocrine disorder.

@IWillBeWaxingAnOwl just a sniff outside the female range then!!!

@Motorina according to this article: https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

Semenya's previous levels were recorded as 15.6 and 29.3 nmol/L