olympics question

This is true.

But the source of the advantage is what matters. It is from maleness, and male athletic performance advantage is what the female category is supposed to exclude. It doesn't matter how small or large the advantage is if someone is doping with drugs or by other methods. The source of the advantage is illegitimate, whether someone has CAIS, PAIS, 46, XY 5-ARD or any other DSD.

It looks like RK has PAIS. It would be impossible to quantify the extent of her advantage, if any, over a normally developed XX female, so the only logical solution is to exclude from female competition. But we're a long way from having a sensible open debate about this, in a world where Semenya and Banda, who are men in every important sense, are pussy-footed around by all.

And yes it is horrible that we end up eyeballing particular athletes and trying to guess their medical conditions. This is squarely on the sports federations for allowing male athletes to compete with women. There's a massive distrust now. Just like when people were getting away with doping, athletes who suddenly performed well or had particularly physiques were looked at with suspicion.

Why have the journalists not written articles about this very issue?

I posted a number of links on the other thread about Barbra Banda... this player along with two others from Zambia, failed the sex verification test required by the womens african cup of nations and did not medicate to reduce their testosterone levels as required by the DSD regulations in force.

Banda and Kundananji have professional football contracts, previously in Spain, China and currently in the USA. They are the top two most expensive players in the history of the women's game, commanding higher transfer fees than any female woman, ever!

Come on journalists!!! We know you read Mumsnet... it's a great headline!! Most expensive women's footballer ever, has XY chromosones.

(This is what is meant by a DSD with male levels of testosterone.... any attempt to suggest other possible explanations - eh female DSD's or PCOS, are incorrect.)

In 2021 the IOC prioritised inclusion over fairness and dropped any requirement to have a testosterone limit for the female category leaving it up to the individual sporting bodies.

FIFA is reportedly reviewing its regulations, taking into account the advice of medical, legal and scientific experts. FIFA has indicated that if the issue arises before the regulations are issued, it will address the issue on a case-by-case basis, taking into account the federation's commitment to human rights. [51]

https://www.charlesrussellspeechlys.com/en/insights/expert-insights/sport/2023/the-status-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-in-international-sports-federations/

Sports federations must expect that the rules they have or will make will be challenged by athletes in arbitration or state courts, and criticised by the media.

WHERE ARE THE LEGAL CHALLENGES ON BEHALF OF WOMEN AND WHERE IS THE MEDIA CRITICISM WHERE FEMALES ARE EXCLUDED FROM THEIR OWN CATEGORIES?

I’ve read that sportswomen who want to transition wait until their careers are over before doing it. If they start taking testosterone they won’t be eligible to compete in the women’s category and they won’t be good enough to compete in the men’s category.

But that doesn’t seem to happen in the case of sportsmen who want transition. They just go ahead and do it, and then compete in the women’s category.

Strange that, isn’t it?

Aargh, Semenya, clearly not Serena. Autocorrect fail.

if you want to watch some women’s sport at its absolute finest watch the XC MTB from this afternoon. Not the most promising course initially but it really tested the pack and led to some absolutely riveting racing. And I love the way MTB always ends with a massive group hug between women who were just killing each other moments before.

Hiltz and Quinn are absolutely fine competing where they are. hiltz has spoken about wanting to take testoerone, grow a beard, but knows that to have the sporting career, it has to be put off, and said sometimes she hates the sport for that. But is making a choice, and a legitimate one, if painful right now. I hope Hiltz is happier later in life, but am glad there's no cheating. Now, that might be because she's female, who can say......

Banda, Serena, Mboma, the two boxers etc are not the same. They are male. And cheaters.

It is interesting watching Rachael Kundananji walk from behind.

I don't really agree. Banda is obviously a man: square jawed; extremely lean & muscular; no hips or breasts; deep voice.

RK to me looks female, or at least definitely not like someone who's been through male puberty. Bluntly put, she seems to have breast development. Some cheekbone area fat deposits too. If she failed a sex test I can only assume she has CAIS or something like that.

They are blatenly taking the piss and we are all supposed to go along with it.

Please make it stop!

It's so obvious when you look at those two

Rachael Kundananji the other Zambian player also failed a sex verification test.

Feeling so bloody 😡

Congrats to the Matildas!

Yay!!! Matildas!!!

Absolutely sick making. A hat trick for Banda but Aus have fought back thank god and won 6-5.
The Guardian is gushing about him..

Sorry Helle. The media in lots of countries have boxed themselves into a corner.

Well I am watching the Matildas get run all over the shop by Banda. I cannot celebrate what a wonderful talent Banda is as the media is doing. Even the Australian media, because they cannot even mention the controversy that Zambia believed at one stage their star and their captain would fail a ‘gender verification test’ so didn’t include that player at one stage.

FIFA needed to sort their shit out before the Olympics and they have again let women down. This is fucked up and any person attempting to vilify women discussing the lack of transparency here and the lack of respect for women and girl’s football is simply supporting misogyny.

How fucking spiteful would it be to support any male to compete in a female sports category?

Indeed.

How fucking spiteful would it be to support any male to compete in a female sports category?

Gosh, what will happen when FIFA finally revises their policy to prevent any male competing as a female, and those male players suddenly all retire but it is never publicly known that they were male all along? It all will just disappear because it is ‘spiteful’ to point out that it was fucking understood but allowed to happen because of unfair policies and censuring voices fed by misinformation.

It is like the East German women athletes who were doped, but the competitors who lost their places will never get their opportunities again. But apparently discussing it is ‘spite’.

Strange how someone so sure of their righteousness that they vilify others who are having a discussion about how male inclusion directly and negatively impacts female sports uses emotive terms such spite yet fails to understand that their own actions support misogyny. Because they have this ideological belief that they are the ones fighting misogyny yet it is quite the other way round.

It cannot be stated any clearer. If officials in the recent past with all the very easy and definitive tests available have felt an athlete will not pass a gender verification test, it is almost a guarantee that that person in question is not female but is someone who ‘qualifies’ under the unfair rules falsely labelled as ‘inclusive’ as a special consideration male athlete.

No female athlete, with all the modern medical testing available, would need to have any further conditions or testing. And no further regulations for ‘suppression of testosterone’. No female today ever has to ‘suppress their natural testosterone’ level to play sport.

Is it tragic that the often exploitative world of sport has in some cases sought out boys/young men with DSDs that were incorrectly recorded as female at birth pushed them into female athletics/sports and then marketed them not as male but falsely claimed that they are females with 'naturally' high testosterone?
Yes it is, but as ever this isn't women's problem to solve and it is unfair to expect women to miss out because some unscrupulous men have sought to exploit a vulnerable group.
It isn't spiteful to call men with DSDs that only occur in males men. Is it exploitative to put them in this situation where their private medical is publicly discussed? Of course it is. But professional sport has quite the track record for exploiting and abusing both boys and girls with big dreams in many ways. From sexual abuse, physical abuse, state sponsored doping to dropping those who don't make the grade or sustain injury without any support or even a second thought.

Yes, they are who I was referring to. Both Quinn and Hiltz describe themselves as transgender although Hiltz somewhat confusingly also describes herself as non-binary. Either way they are both clearly female and not taking cross-sex hormones (and would fail dope testing if they were).