Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no

Going back to basics, single-sex spaces and women-only groups exist for a reason.

In every single situation that is single sex, whether it is toilets, or sports, or prisons or hobby groups, or music awards, women are disadvantaged by including men in that group. For a start, as we all know, if you say transwomen are welcome there is no way to exclude any man who says he's a woman.

But even if they all genuinely think they are women, they change the space for women. At one extreme this might be by aggressive or predatory behaviour, or threats - transwomen are shown to follow male pattern offending, not female pattern offending; even if they are not violent and threatening, they affect the women-only category in other ways, which might be by social conditioning making the men dominant and not leaving space for women, or might be by removing privacy from the women, who may want to be able to discuss periods or menopause or buying bras without men listening.

If you support women's rights, why would you want this?

Y'know, there are another few points I'd like to include, as I think they're really worth thinking about.

• If we've established that pretty much all "trans lesbians" are in fact heterosexual males, I should add here that statistically (see the Cass Review and elsewhere, including the info from trans orgs) most “trans men” have been found to be actually same sex attracted. In other words, they are actual lesbians. So the majority of TW are heterosexual males and the majority of TM lesbian females. Is there anything notable about that? Are these in fact the same demographic?
• What if I tell you there’s an age discrepancy too, as well as a sex-based and sexual orientation based one. You’ll get FAR more middle aged “trans women” (who claim they’ve “always” known they are women, despite in many cases having spent much of their adult lives married to women and fathering children: see, for instance Canadian anti-feminist "trans" politician Morgane Oger ) than “trans men”. Far more “trans men” are in fact younger, same sex attracted females; in their twenties and early thirties, usually. Does this indicate a unified “trans community?” Again, is this the same demographic with the same material needs and pressures?
• Now how would you explain what’s been reported as a common narrative by a number of formerly “trans men” that they found themselves often told that as “males” they had privilege and power over “trans women”? Do people honestly think that young lesbian women really have “power” over middle aged heterosexual men?

See, in my view, this just shows what a massive con the whole ideology is. It's old school patriarchy and misogyny (often violent misogyny: see TRA activity, see what kinds of violently anti woman narratives were enabled in, say, the Gender Studies department of the LSE, or at Goldsmith's) , dressed up in a new outfit, bolstered by gaslighting and the not-actually-that-intelligent witterings of certain 90s academics and their many acolytes within academia and the arts.

I feel that I am being pushed to be pro or anti trans rights.

Are you?

Or are you being asked to choose whether a man's or woman's rights take priority if there's a clash?

Outside the fringes of fundamentalist religions and the madder end of US politics, hardly anybody is actually against trans rights (if we assume that 'trans rights are human rights' means that trans people should have the same basic rights as everyone else). But being 'pro' trans rights so often actually means allowing trans people - and specifically transwomen - extra rights.

Most people around here are not anti trans. They are pro women.

Take, for example, the Hampstead swimming ponds. There are 3 ponds, which have been there for around a century.

1 men's pond.

1 mixed pond.

1 ladies' pond.

Everyone has at least 1 pond - 2 if they are happy to swim with the opposite sex.

Or they did.

Until transwomen demanded, and were given, access to the ladies' pond. So women who cant or don't want to swim with the opposite sex - because of previous sexual assault, because of religion, or simply because they don't want the hassle - now have no ponds.

Men now have up to 3. Even men who don't want to or can't swim with the opposite sex still have 1 pond all to themselves. Because when transmen asked for access to the men's pond they were turned down. And when they tried to swim, the police were called.

I'm not against trans rights. I don't want to take away their ponds. But I won't stand by while they take mine. I don't want to ban trans people from sport; but I won't let them destroy women's sport. I want all trans people to have access to refuges and rape counselling if they need them - but not by taking away those facilities from the far greater numbers of women who need them.

Does this push to choose a side ever ask if you are you pro or anti* women's *rights?

Talk away and you'll be OK!

Me to. My response is that it appears that many transpeople really don’t want to seen as “different”. They want to be seen as women, or men, ie the gender that they identify with, rather than the sex that they are, and for some transwomen it appears that this identity comes complete with period pains, menopause, and a cervix. Which is ridiculous and only goes to underline that this is as much about a state of mind as much as a state of body. A case in point is the sports bodies who have offered specific categories for trans people to compete in, but have found that they have no takers.

If you ask questions like that, who knows. I'm irritated already.

You say that you don't care if the person next to you in the toilets has a penis. I assume this is because it's a locked cubicle. Why can't a transwoman use a locked cubicle in the gents in that case?

I do care if the person in the next cubicle has a penis. Transwomen talk quite happily on places such as reddit about how they enjoy rooting through the sani bins in toilets to fish out used tampons. It's apparently very arousing to stick them up their arses and especially so if it's still warm. We've also seen prominent trans people post about how they enjoy listening to women piss.

Letting males into women's spaces is effectively saying that we're happy for them to get their sexual kicks from it. It excludes many women who have no alternative and let's men have their choice.

Yes, very true.

I think most people on here would agree with you on most points you raise.

I think the problem arises when it comes to single sex spaces, while you are quite happy for transwomen to use womens spaces, a lot of women aren’t, either because they think they should be just that , ie single sex spaces protecting womens legal rights to privacy and dignity, or because for personal , religious or social reasons they, as women would be unable to use women’s spaces if they were told that transwomen also wanted to use them.

People can’t change sex, so as soon as a male bodied person enters a women’s space it ceases to be a single sex space. I am sorry if this inconveniences your friend, but to be honest, I don’t think this is an issue which it is the responsibility of women to solve and accommodate.

Over 99% of sex offenders are male, and over 80% of their victims female. The 99% figure includes men who identify as women.

Even the 1% of 'female' will include males due to the Gender Recognition Act. We don't know how many, due to the Gender Recognition Act.

Women will not be forced into compliance or collusion because a man thinks his delusion somehow is more important than the right of women to feel safe in single sex spaces. I have every sympathy for those who experience gender dysphoria but their dysphoria does not trump my right to be safe nor does it mean that men should be using female pronouns because they are not and will never be women. Men and women can refer to themselves using whatever name they wish and "identify" however they like but it doesn't mean I am obliged to agree with them or play along. In sone cases and I stress the word some we have seen that predators will use any means necessary to access women's spaces in order to prey on them. These predators would use the dysphoria of others as a pretense for continuing their predatory behaviour and putting women and girls at risk. These have to be the boundaries that women hold and must not accede any aspect of.

Another question, why should a person with Body dysmorphic disorder (if that is what we are talking about) be treated differently from a person with Anorexia nervosa? Why should one mental health disorder be treated (not always successfully) in the hope of recovery, and the other be permitted to take over and dominate not only the sufferer's life but that of all those around him or her?

YES! Absolutely this.

"Validation as a woman" is everything. You even have men who id as women turning up in infertility forums, womens' groups, menopause groups... you name it. Anything which is women only. Entirely for this purpose.

And I'm afraid some very stupid and naive women fall for it and pander, turning the focus onto this man's validation, at the expense of the actual women the groups are there for. Even one of the trustees of the Fawcett Society was at it. She was going on and on about how this "trans woman" who was in her menopause group had great dress sense and lipstick.

Er. What is that "trans women" DOING in your menopause group, love? He hasn't had a menopause. He can't. He's male. He is there for your validation as female. Why are you giving it to him? You have therefore diverted attention from the women who need the group. It's misogyny. Millicent would be appalled.

And let's not even go there with Edinburgh Rape Crisis, where all the (very young trustees) were prioritising the validation wishes of Mridul Wadhwa (who doesn't even have a GRC) at the expense of ACTUAL RAPE VICTIMS who were booted out or told they should be "re-educated" with supposed feminists like the Guilty Feminist woman fawning over him. It's beyond disgusting.

All but one of these men were 'living as a woman'. How are we supposed to tell which ones should be allowed access to vulnerable women and children?

Living as a woman actually means 'being referred to as a woman by other people'. Being a transwoman cannot happen internally. It needs external validation.

You put on lipstick, a skirt or even just pink trainers and change your name on your gas bill to Judy. That's it. That's all they can do to 'live as a woman'.

Everything else has to come from others. This is why they are so enraged with 'misgendering' and accuse people of denying their existence. Because to them, if you do not validate their fantasy, they really don't exist. Their internal 'feeling' is not enough.

It's so fundamental and necessary to them that they are trying to make law to force people to comply.

It was Tyler Porter, and in Canada. Further info here:

https://whatisawoman.uk/Refuges/

There are MULTIPLE examples of this kind of thing. Even if someone has not yet been done for it. Also, does anyone remember Yaniv and his "waxing" demands? He brought lawsuits against multiple women, mostly low-paid, immigrant beauticians working in their own homes, demanding that they wax his balls, on the grounds he was "female".

You should check the This Never Happens thread here on Mumsnet for all the times it does. A lot of it is to do with gaining sexual pleasure from encroaching women's boundaries in the first place. Why on earth should a man who feels that way that be allowed to do so?

Yet again a discussion and question list that assumes that 'trans people' are natal males who identify as transwomen

'trans people' may be natal females who identify as transmen.

So even before I get to the ludicrous 'living as' nonsense (a person with a Y chromosome is in fact obviously 'living as a man' even if he identifies as a transwoman because he is a man, there is nothing else he can live as), women are being written out of consideration. Again.

Excellent posts hihelenhi and* *Beachcomber

Yes. 100%

This basic fact says it all really.

The phrase "living as a woman" is pure old fashioned misogyny.

It comes straight from the idea that men are the default human and women are not only "other' but they are defined by men.

" Living as a woman" is really offensive. It is a euphemism for "Dressing, appearing and acting in ways that correspond to what male dominated society and culture has defined and proscribed as being acceptable for and allowed to female humans AKA women (as defined, classified and categorieed by male humans).

It is a phrase which denies women their individualality and their right to define themselves.

It is a phrase based on sexist stereotype and sex roles. It denies women's humanity and wholeness.

I'm always shocked by how easily it is bandied around.

It looks like you are coming from the position of believing that everyone has a gender, OP.
Most of us who post on this board do not have a gender. We don't identify as our sex, we just are.
That's why we have no issue saying that any males should stay out of female spaces. No matter how they identify or how nice they are.

In answer to some of your other questions:

• The vast majority of men (over 90%) who id as women or "trans women" have not had reassignment surgery and retain their penises. Far more have breast augmentation surgery, generally because they are sexually aroused by this, than genital surgery. Look up "autogynephilia" and then think about how many "trans women" are clearly and obviously this.
• The vast majority of "trans women" are heterosexual in orientation. That is, their supposed "transition" does not change their basic sexual orientation. Heterosexual males. "Trans lesbians" are heterosexual males.
• There have been a number of assaults and sexual crimes (and threats made) against women and girls by men who identify as women and have used that to identify into their spaces. For instance, Katie Dolatowski, as mentioned previously. The WiiSpa incident, where the interloper (who women, some who were there with their young daughters. complained about and basically told to "educate themselves") was eventually found to be a known sex offender. Trans sex offender Karen White sexually assaulted women a women's prison. Rapist Isla Bryson in a women's prison.Tyler someone who used his trans identity to enter a rape crisis centre, where he was filmed gleefully posing with an erection in the toilets. The women who complained were told they were not welcome but he was. Many others. Bear in mind too, that well known sex offenders like Jimmy Savile affected MULTIPLE women. Just one sex offender can harm multiple women and girls. So it being a "minority" numbers wise is irrelevant.
• MOJ figures indicate that over half of "trans women" prisoners are in prison for sex offences, compared with around 18% of total male prisoners. Although they are a much smaller population, this gives them a rate of about five times the sex offender rates of men who do not id as women. That is not insignificant, and is infinitely more than sex offending rates of actual female inmates. There is no reason to assume 'trans women' are less dangerous to women than any other men, there is in fact reason to assume that they may be more so. After all, cross-dressing is one of the most common paraphilias of sex offenders. With self ID, what is the difference between a so-called "real" trans person and a cross-dressing man who is using it to access women's spaces? How would YOU tell the difference?
• Single sex spaces have to exist because a minority of men are sex offenders, but that minority causes untold harm to multiple women; we exclude ALL males as a result, even your dad, your nice uncle Fred or your Nigel who wouldn't hurt a fly.
• Over 99% of sex offenders are male, and over 80% of their victims female. The 99% figure includes men who identify as women.
• There is therefore NO reason to treat men who id as women as any different from any other man with respect to single sex spaces and the reasons we have them.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Presumably you mean living his fantasy of how a woman should live.

Do you also feel that I should be forced to allow this person to give me a smear test when I've requested a woman? Do you feel they should be offered access to a refuge for abused women? Or to a therapy group for raped women? What if women in these supposedly safe spaces say they don't want this person there, should their views be respected or should your friend's?

Exactly. They are pretending to be a woman by dressing/acting etc the way they think women do, using stereotypes that most actual women don't.

I think it's really helpful to think about what living as a woman means. Do we all live exactly the same way? What is is about how we live that makes it living as a woman? Is a woman who doesn't wear makeup, doesn't have kids and working as a plumber not a woman? Is a stay at home trophy wife mother who always looks so glamorous more of a woman? What about those of us with physics or maths degrees but can't cook a meal to save our life? And it works the other way- are stay at home dads not men? Etc

You will realise actually there is no way to live as a woman without using harmful stereotypes to describe this if you think about it. If we go along with the idea there are ways to live as a woman we go along with the continued oppression of women.

Me three. Hope we get an explanation.